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What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

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Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#191

Post by Beltalowda »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #57
martincmartin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

> I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting I am very concerned that US/UK appear to be decolving for the last 10 years. The standards of acceptable behaviour from politicians have definately gone down.

I am somewhat optimistic about the UK situation; in the end, Boris was at least held accountable, and by his own party. It was too late, and he got away with far too much in my opinion, but in the end a line was drawn and was told to bugger off. Incidents with "colourful" PMs are not unheard off, e.g. Churchill was widely criticised for various antics which are not all that dissimilar to Boris' antics. This of course ended up being overshadowed by his status as the war PM.

In the US the situation is quite a bit more dire, and roots of the current situation are also quite a bit deeper and go back longer beyond just "this asshole got elected to office".

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#192

Post by wizofaus »

thfuran wrote: post #177
daveslash wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But the politicians who are scammers (not all are) seem to be much more brazen about it. And I can't help but feel that the public failing to hold them accountable is exacerbating and accelerating the situation.

I think that once you get to the point that "all politicians lie/cheat/steal" is a widely accepted truism, the system is pretty much doomed.

Perhaps but at least in Australia there's still a sense that politicians can't just get away with whatever they feel works for them. There's a big kerfuffle currently about the fact our previous prime minister secretly had himself sworn into multiple ministerial roles without consulting anyone else in his own party. The curious thing to me is that so far there's no evidence he did so for any personal gain or made improper use of ministerial privileges. But he's still rightfully being grilled over it and there's a decent chance he'll be forced to step down from his role as a member of the opposition. And the various YouTube videos mocking him have been hilarious (for anyone familiar with how he was in office the last 5 years).

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#193

Post by ookdatnog »

egberts1 wrote: post #99
suzzer99 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there absolutely was not obvious voter fraud in 2020. That's the Big Lie.

You were saying? https://www.reddit.com/r/electionfraud/comments/v85iy4/mind_...

... a mind map?

What point exactly are you trying to argue by posting a mind map?

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#194

Post by JoeAltmaier »

martincmartin wrote: post #29
nemesisj wrote: post #4

I follow the referenced instagram account and I actually find it depressing. I've probably visited Beirut 20+ times over the last 7 years. Last visit was summer of 2019, so haven't been since COVID. My company has an office there. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's also one of the most heartbreaking situations in economic and humanitarian terms. The country has experienced one of the worst currency cri…

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

Free elections != democracy. Also respect for institutions and equality before the law. Any part of that weakened, it can go off the rails.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#195

Post by nsajko »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #188
nsajko wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vague insinuations such as this one always harm the discussion. Why not just communicate clearly? > the country that was Austro-Hungary, Slovakia No, Slovakia wasn't Austria-Hungary, rather it was just a small part of Austria-Hungary (of Hungary, to be more precise). Wasn't even a successor de jure of Austria-Hungary.

Yeah, I assume the city they're referring to is Vienna? Just guessing because of its well known high GDP. However, the point stands. Many cities were bombed to rubble in WWII and they came back. The same could happen in Beirut if a stable political situation were to emerge. Though there are numerous reasons that will be very difficult.

Getting quite off-topic, but Vienna is the capital of Austria; while Bratislava and Košice are the only two Slovakian cities with a population greater than 100000, so presumably it's one of those.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#196

Post by deepdriver »

benburleson wrote: post #142
deepdriver wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minneapolis is well on its way.

Really? As an American (on the West coast), I had no idea.

Remains to be seen whether periods like this post-Floyd were a one-off, or devolve into a regular occurrence. I am pessimistic. Ethnic and sectarian divides getting worse not better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovtLTPrB2MA

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#197

Post by taylodl »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #188
nsajko wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vague insinuations such as this one always harm the discussion. Why not just communicate clearly? > the country that was Austro-Hungary, Slovakia No, Slovakia wasn't Austria-Hungary, rather it was just a small part of Austria-Hungary (of Hungary, to be more precise). Wasn't even a successor de jure of Austria-Hungary.

Yeah, I assume the city they're referring to is Vienna? Just guessing because of its well known high GDP. However, the point stands. Many cities were bombed to rubble in WWII and they came back. The same could happen in Beirut if a stable political situation were to emerge. Though there are numerous reasons that will be very difficult.

Let's not forget a hefty investment was made by the West to rebuild those cities that were bombed to rubble that Beirut is not getting. So Beirut may need more than a stable political situation.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#198

Post by rougka »

babarock wrote: post #49
james-redwood wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

Your description of Lebanon is correct, but incomplete. - Lebanon (as an independent state) has been created in 1920, right after WW1 by the French "colonialists" specifically to draw an enclave of non-muslim minority in the country. It's classic Divide&Conquer strategy. - The PLO (Palestinian Islamists) did try to set up an Islamic state in the country, but they were aided, or at least encouraged through inaction, b…

Since when are the PLO considered an Islamist movement?

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#199

Post by rougka »

_nedR wrote: post #109
james-redwood wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

> a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine You mean the native palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from their homeland and became refugees in Lebanon (and Jordan and Syria)

He probably meant the PLO that moved from Jordan to Lebanon after failing to make Jordan the failed state it has made Lebanon

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#200

Post by rougka »

Apocryphon wrote: post #160
_shadi wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the trend started before the 90s but it became apparent in the 90s. It started in the 70s, before that all the islamist political groups were heavily repressed by Nasser and different nationalist leaders in the region, Sadat realignment, the Islamic revolution in Iran, and the commercialization of oil in the gulf countries opened the Pandora box for the different(and sometimes warring) groups inspired by…

And didn't the House of Saud invest heavily in Islamist groups as a counterweight to the Arab Nationalists and to Iranian-style Islamic revolutionary influence?

Palestinian Islamism is mostly rooted in the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement originating in the 1920's Cairo
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