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What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

the961.com

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Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#161
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, the Mughals were initially foreign conquerors, just like the British with their Raj. But then ancient Germania was also somewhat unified by the foreign Romans, so perhaps it's same as it ever was. I always wonder why the Maurya Empire doesn't get brought up as a pan-Indian empire, it was local to the area and conquered almost the entirety of the subcontinent.

Human history is a story of repeated conquest, population admixture and/or replacement. Almost all “indigenous people” in present or past are just descendants of the most recent conquerors. Hardly any peoples have legitimate claim to land on the virtue of being there first, it’s almost universally on the basis of conquest instead. It always has been thus.

Yes, but it's interesting to note the difference between when a large region is united through conquest by locals, or an outside power further away. Italy, in comparison to the above two examples, was united by the local Romans. (Though of course, "local" is incredibly relative. The difference between northern and southern Italy has been vast even unto modernity, never mind during antiquity.)

Now, I'm not sure what the difference of living under Maurya vs. Mughal vs. British rule was for its inhabitants, these are widely different polities from completely different time periods, but it's still a distinction. Though I suppose more of a retroactive one imposed by our modern bias, when we can point at India, Italy, and Germany and say, "ah, that patch of land is naturally meant to be united by someone."

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#162
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

>>Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. As a part of Sykes-Picot Agreement, the French wanted Lebanon to be a Christian Israel in the Middle East. WW1/2 didn't workout well for France and Britain(Should have listened to Neville Chamberlain,…

What part that Chamberlain was saying?

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#163

Not pictured are the refugee camps and slums that have existed since at least 1948. The “Golden Age” was one for a (predominantly Christian) upper class that was out of touch (and still is) with the rest of the country. Source: am Lebanese Christian.

Has there ever been a "great civilization" that didn't also have slums?

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need people who believe their government is legitimate and that the mechanism of voting is valid. You don’t see that anymore in America anymore for example, republicans across the nation believe that if there candidate loses, it must be voter fraud by either by one scheme or another. Shit, Trump himself still claims that he won the previous election.

There was obvious voter fraud in the 2020 election. The only question that should be disputed is if it was enough to sway the election.

It's mind blowing to me that generally intelligent people believe the biggest sore loser in American history. It's a huge danger to the future of our democracy and you all don't care. It seriously makes me want to cry in despair for the future.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#165
post #163

Not pictured are the refugee camps and slums that have existed since at least 1948. The “Golden Age” was one for a (predominantly Christian) upper class that was out of touch (and still is) with the rest of the country. Source: am Lebanese Christian.

Has there ever been a "great civilization" that didn't also have slums?

It's all about ratios. A large chunk of the Lebanese people lived in poverty (add to that 100,000 Palestinian refugees who arrived in 1948).

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#166

This strikes me as tremendously sad--how a city can go from lively, productive, and engaging to something else entirely in such a short time span. The writer speaks positively about the Beirut of today. I won't pretend to know anything about Beirut, but is it really "lovelier" (author's word) today than it was back then? It's a cliche at this point to wonder whether the same thing can (or will?) happen in the United…

The date on the top of the article is August 10, 2019. Almost a year later, August 4, 2020, the port explosion happened, probably breaking all the glass of the city. Wikipedia: > The damage from the blast affected over half of Beirut, with the likely cost above US$15 billion and insured losses at around US$3 billion. Approximately ninety percent of the city's hotels were damaged and three hospitals completely destroy…

They should have probably left that wreck of a ship transport its explisive cargo to Somalia or wherever it was going instead of arresting it and storing its cargo. Probably Russian explosives bound for Eastern Africa conflict zones masking as fertilizer.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#167
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that there are many national identities that are similar. Poland is an example. Regarding the article, before and after pictures of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria to name a few places are the same. Prosperous sovereign nations outside Western Europe and North America are bad for business.

I wonder why prosperous sovereign nations in South Asia are not bad for business. Maybe because they don't have the oil.

They had centralized fully functional states that maintained economy that could supply cities as large or larger than Europe.

Japan was not made by Meiji, it was transformed but foundation of the "miracle" was there. During sengoku it created and armed with locally built firearms armies that dwarfed that of any European state of the time in one generation.. from bows to hundred thousands of muskets

Culture >> everything. In 1945 Beirut was a paradise compared to burned to the ground Tokyo and every other major city. In few decades it had built dams like Kurobe, challenged and beat American car manufacturers.. resources, colonialism.. right. Whoever was running the place knew how to do it, they do not know now and very unlikely to learn in the next 100 years.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#168
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, the Mughals were initially foreign conquerors, just like the British with their Raj. But then ancient Germania was also somewhat unified by the foreign Romans, so perhaps it's same as it ever was. I always wonder why the Maurya Empire doesn't get brought up as a pan-Indian empire, it was local to the area and conquered almost the entirety of the subcontinent.

Human history is a story of repeated conquest, population admixture and/or replacement. Almost all “indigenous people” in present or past are just descendants of the most recent conquerors. Hardly any peoples have legitimate claim to land on the virtue of being there first, it’s almost universally on the basis of conquest instead. It always has been thus.

But there is a difference between conquerors that intermarried (European colonists to Latin america) and ones that didn’t (Mughals and British). Modern Indians have very little Mughal ancestry.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#169
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PLO tried to distinguish itself from Hamas by claiming to be more secular Hamas was founded in 1989, a bit late for participation in the Lebanese civil war. > Arafat, the leader of the PLO, wasn't christian. That's ... weird you claim this. I'm talking about the leader of the PFLP, George Habash, which was the second largest Palestinian force at the time and operating in Lebanon during the civil war. > they were tr…

Fair, not Hamas, the Islamic Jihad that came before it. It's not nearly the point of my reply, but good gotcha. As for sources of how the PLO treated non-muslims during the civil war of lebanon, it's tough to find what you want. The whole civil war was about the christian factions vs the palestinian factions, with different entites in between with rapid shifting alliances.

There was no "Islamic Jihad" in Palestinian groups before the 90s. Religion wasn't a factor in Palestinian politics or militancy before Hamas, and Hamas only became a big player during the second intifada in the 2000s.

I understand you are from Lebanon and from a sectarian background, but that's maybe partly why you have a biased understanding of the groups, ideologies and foreign players involved. You may want to read some background on the history and the conflict from some other sources maybe starting with [1]. Palestinian militancy played a big role, but their religion did not and they were not trying to ethnically cleanse Lebanon or establish a theocracy.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you jest, but an officially secular system that asks us to 'trust the experts' has a lot in common with religious fundamentalism.

As a whole, "trust the experts" has a much better track record than "google what you want to be true".

A better track record according to whom, the experts?

It's one thing when an expert in biblical study tells you not to do your own research. When the same instructions come from an institution deferring its authority to the scientific method, someone's very obviously gone off the rails.

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