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What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

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Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#131
post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

Lebanon was literally formed by the colonialist West, who used divide and conquer to strategically place people there so that the conflicts keep going.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#132
post #4

I follow the referenced instagram account and I actually find it depressing. I've probably visited Beirut 20+ times over the last 7 years. Last visit was summer of 2019, so haven't been since COVID. My company has an office there. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's also one of the most heartbreaking situations in economic and humanitarian terms. The country has experienced one of the worst currency cri…

Every country neighboring Israel is a mess since Israel tries to destabilize them to make them weak so that Israel can be the regional superpower.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#133
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Well, I guess those Christian and Persian refugees missed out on all the great things that happened that the majority of the population wanted to have happen. I am sure they are wishing they could have been there for those changes.

That’s not at all related to the point that you’re responding to, from my perspective.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#134
post #4

I follow the referenced instagram account and I actually find it depressing. I've probably visited Beirut 20+ times over the last 7 years. Last visit was summer of 2019, so haven't been since COVID. My company has an office there. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's also one of the most heartbreaking situations in economic and humanitarian terms. The country has experienced one of the worst currency cri…

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

I think about this all the time.

I believe it arises from an interaction between individuals and the surrounding culture and institutions.

Let's assume, a priori, that everyone is trying to maximize their "success". This doesn't necessarily mean purely selfish greed, but more an observation that there's a natural incentive to take care of ourselves and our own and that we will naturally try to figure out how to get there.

The "get there" part means navigating the social environment and institutions that surround us. We aren't living alone on a desert island where our options for survival are purely physical. Most of our interactions and choices are around other people and social systems. So when we seek success, we are pathfinding through the rules, norms, and ethics of the culture we're embedded in.

What kind of path do you take? In a culture with low corruption and high institutional trust, the most efficient way to acquire resources and stability is by playing the game honestly and cooperating in good faith with others. If we all do the right thing, we all win. Overall efficiency goes up and that benefits all of us.

In institutions with low trust and high corruption, playing by the rules and attempting to cooperate leaves you open to exploitation because your peers aren't doing that. You'll get screwed.

Now the fun part is the feedback loop between individuals and institutions. A culture is just the collective choices of all of the individuals in it, so every move we make in the game is also an act of defining the rules of that game.

The greater trust we have in each other, the more efficient the system gets and the better it is for everyone. But by that exact same token, the easier the system becomes to exploit and the more attractive it becomes to bad actors. The optimally efficient society is also the perfect honeypot. So as we seek greater trust and efficiency, we also directly incentivize deceipt and corruption.

Going in the other way, as a society gets more corrupt, it becomes less and less efficient. It's hard to get anything done when every single action requires several rounds of negotiation at gunpoint because everyone is presumed to be an adversary. So as a society becomes less trusting, it loses the ability to compete against other more efficient, trustworthy societies.

What I think you see is that as a larger society's institutional trust falls, within that society new pockets of trusted cooperating subcultures arise. Since those are more efficient than the larger society, they tend to grow and outcompete. But people in those pockets don't trust outside of that subculture, so you end up with the inefficiencies of mistrust and adversarial interactions at the boundaries between these groups.

Eventually a group might win and continue to grow, but the bigger it gets, the harder it is to maintain cohesion and trust across all of it. So eventually its overall trust fades but then new pockets of trust appear inside it.

This sort of slow boiling foam of fading trust and growing bubbles of cohesion is, I think, fundamental to human sociology.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite the re-writing of history there. The Shah removed Mosaddegh from power in 1952 but re-instated him almost immediately due to pressure from pro-democracy supporters. The Shah was then exiled after a failed coup attempt by one of his Imperial Guard colonels effectively leaving him powerless. The rest is history and we've gotten to where we're at today because the UK and the US interfered with a nascent dem…

To label the protestors "pro-democracy supporters" is an interesting take. To me, it would be like labeling the Jan 6 protestors as pro-democracy supporters. The people protesting for him were the nationalists and the islamists, and some socialists. Not pro-democracy folk. Mossadegh's party also called for the assassination of the Shah during this time. Isn't Johnson declaring himself the leader of the nation autocra…

> Mossadegh's party also called for the assassination of the Shah during this time.

Going to have to insist on a citation for that claim.

> Isn't Johnson declaring himself the leader of the nation autocratic behavior? But simply non monarchical?

That's not how it works in the UK. In a general election it's traditionally the leader of the winning party who becomes prime minister, the electorate know this and it generally works out fine. The government of the day can still have their policies and legislation challenged in the houses of parliament (simplistically speaking).

Admittedly, what is anachronistic and anti-democratic are the current shenanigans going on to elect Johnson's replacement where the electorate have no say.

> if only his policies weren't so boneheaded as to throw the entire country into chaos

What's boneheaded about wanting to control your own natural resources and de-colonialise your country?

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#136
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that there are many national identities that are similar. Poland is an example. Regarding the article, before and after pictures of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria to name a few places are the same. Prosperous sovereign nations outside Western Europe and North America are bad for business.

I wonder why prosperous sovereign nations in South Asia are not bad for business. Maybe because they don't have the oil.

They did have rubber though.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the best or deepest account, but for the modern reader who can't spare time on Aristotle and a gamut of old beards [1] Acemoglu and Robinson's account is clear and interesting reading [2]. In the case of Lebanon, the story is that it's ethnic/religious diversity is too much for stability, it being constantly open to interference from its neighbours and super-powers playing proxy war games. [1] https://en.wikipedi…

Plenty of places with high ethnic/religious diversity have thrived: Singapore, Istanbul, New York City, (increasingly) the capitals of Western Europe. Teotihuacan, the largest pyramid complex outside of Egypt, was a multi-cultural city where different religions, languages and ethnicities lived side by side for 1000 years. It can be done.

> Plenty of places with high ethnic/religious diversity have thrived:

What you say is true but besides the point. There's no argument to be made against ethnic/religious diversity. But there is a problem with foreign interference that stokes ethnic tension.

My own London is perhaps the most successful multi-cultural population in the world. We don't have RPG attacks on schools because we don't have superpowers spending millions on manipulating and arming the Hoxton Crips against the Hounslow Massive. And there's the important difference.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the cause of all human on human suffering since the dawn of time is greed. Its almost a tautology so maybe it didn't need to be said. For the record, I'm a Canadian who went to school with countless Lebanese people in Ottawa. I'm a big fan!

Greed cannot account for all of it. Ignorance, for example, comes to mind instantly.

Going with what they're saying, ignorance wouldn't be fostered and exploited if it wasn't for greed.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the cause of all human on human suffering since the dawn of time is greed. Its almost a tautology so maybe it didn't need to be said. For the record, I'm a Canadian who went to school with countless Lebanese people in Ottawa. I'm a big fan!

> Yes, the cause of all human on human suffering since the dawn of time is greed Nah, greed is distant #2. #1 is idiocy

#0 is consciousness, the current nature of.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#140
post #130
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We talk a lot about separation of powers, the constitution, etc. in the US, but until pretty recently, we failed to appreciate the fact that democracy is largely a cultural thing. It works because we believe it works. Go and read the Soviet Constitution of 1936 (Stalin) [1]. It talks about freedom of speech, freedom of press, assembly, demonstrations. It actually goes much further than the US constitution. It talks a…

Go and read the Soviet Constitution of 1936 (Stalin) [1]. That would be a waste of time. Stalin had no intention to do anything of that and everybody knew where dissension would send them: jail, gulags, torture and death. That's not "a cultural thing", that's just cynism and propaganda. A cultural thing is when everybody wants to make it work but it never really works as intended. But that's more like the government…

Government is part of culture, as there's a feedback loop where culture shapes it, and is shaped by it.

It can absolutely happen here, too, if we elect clowns who explicitly want to break the working parts of the system. The ones that have no intentions of making it work (Except in a way that serves them).

Laws and constitutions are indeed just pieces of paper, and carry no power in themselves. It's culture that ultimately decides whether or not they actually apply, and to whom.

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