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What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

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Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#121

Post by mikem170 »

egberts1 wrote: post #99
suzzer99 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there absolutely was not obvious voter fraud in 2020. That's the Big Lie.

You were saying? https://www.reddit.com/r/electionfraud/comments/v85iy4/mind_...

I see your graphic posted by someone named jgreene777 on reddit and raise you a 72 page report prepared under the direction of eight prominent conservatives - people like retired federal judges, former senators, a solicitor general, an election lawyer, etc. [0]

This report looked at the 64 court cases and 187 allegations of election fraud in all 6 battleground states and documented the evidence showing that each and every claim of voter fraud by Trump's team was false, consistant with all the court rulings. You can scroll to any case you are interested in and read the details.

They found that there were many republicans who voted a straight party ticket except for their vote against Trump. This is consistent with the recent Wyoming primary results, where some 25-30% of republicans voted for the person in congress who is trying harder than anyone else to put Trump in jail.

The 2020 presidential election was most definitely lost by Trump, not stolen. I acknowledge that there are biased sources claiming otherwise, much to the detriment of our democracy.

[0] https://lostnotstolen.org/

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#122

Post by Georgelemental »

fezfight wrote: post #85
skippyboxedhero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greed existed before 1975. Are you saying Americans aren't greedy? And that is why they are so rich? To be more specific: Lebanon was a country that had avoided the stuff going on elsewhere in the Middle East. The PLO gets involved, and the country implodes.

Yes, the cause of all human on human suffering since the dawn of time is greed. Its almost a tautology so maybe it didn't need to be said. For the record, I'm a Canadian who went to school with countless Lebanese people in Ottawa. I'm a big fan!

> Yes, the cause of all human on human suffering since the dawn of time is greed

Nah, greed is distant #2. #1 is idiocy

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#123

Post by bergenty »

suzzer99 wrote: post #87
nonrandomstring wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the best or deepest account, but for the modern reader who can't spare time on Aristotle and a gamut of old beards [1] Acemoglu and Robinson's account is clear and interesting reading [2]. In the case of Lebanon, the story is that it's ethnic/religious diversity is too much for stability, it being constantly open to interference from its neighbours and super-powers playing proxy war games. [1] https://en.wikipedi…

Plenty of places with high ethnic/religious diversity have thrived: Singapore, Istanbul, New York City, (increasingly) the capitals of Western Europe. Teotihuacan, the largest pyramid complex outside of Egypt, was a multi-cultural city where different religions, languages and ethnicities lived side by side for 1000 years. It can be done.

Pretty much all of the Roman Empire.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#124

Post by deepdriver »

spaetzleesser wrote: post #111

Beirut should be a warning for all of us who live in comfortable countries and think things well be like that forever. I remember talking to somebody who grew up in Beirut sometime in the 60s or 70s and she said at that time nobody would have believed that their well developed, prosperous city would descend into chaos only a few years later.

Minneapolis is well on its way.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#125

Post by [deleted] »

guykdm wrote: post #53
martincmartin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

"Lebanese" is a modern invention. Lebanon is a contrived post colonial state with no historical foundations. Those most usually fail horribly.

[deleted]

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#126

Post by azth »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #100
babarock wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your description of Lebanon is correct, but incomplete. - Lebanon (as an independent state) has been created in 1920, right after WW1 by the French "colonialists" specifically to draw an enclave of non-muslim minority in the country. It's classic Divide&Conquer strategy. - The PLO (Palestinian Islamists) did try to set up an Islamic state in the country, but they were aided, or at least encouraged through inaction, b…

A huge issue in the middle east for democracy is that muslims, or the very very substantial percentage of them that are fundamentalist, want democracy if they aren't in power, and a super oppressive totalitarian state if they are in power. To the point that it isn't just about establishing islamic states and oppressing non-muslims, it's about establishing an islamic state of the Sunni or Shia variety and brutally opp…

I disagree that Muslims want democracy (I'm Muslim). Present day democracy generally contradicts and is against Islam, so I'm not sure where you're getting your information from.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#127

Post by dvirsky »

justinzollars wrote: post #71
rayiner wrote: post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

What a limited view. Consider Tyre, very close to Beirut. Before Muslim it was Phoenician, Hittite, Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Canaanite, Persian, Macedonian, Israeli, English, Ottoman, Roman, and now Lebanon. Its had both Eastern and Western Influence (since Alexander). Remember Alexander predates the existence of Islam and Christianity - certainly colonialism. At the time of Beirut's founding its religion was…

> Israeli

Huh? You mean in biblical times?

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#128

Post by babarock »

_alxk wrote: post #67
babarock wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the PLO tried to distinguish itself from Hamas by claiming to be more secular, make no mistake that they were clearly a muslim force. I was too young to remember the civil war, but at least in the collective retelling of the story, it's commonly accepted that PLO tried to topple the Beirut government to install their own. There are many claims that Arafat wanted Lebanon to be an alternative for their "stolen" P…

> PLO tried to distinguish itself from Hamas by claiming to be more secular Hamas was founded in 1989, a bit late for participation in the Lebanese civil war. > Arafat, the leader of the PLO, wasn't christian. That's ... weird you claim this. I'm talking about the leader of the PFLP, George Habash, which was the second largest Palestinian force at the time and operating in Lebanon during the civil war. > they were tr…

Fair, not Hamas, the Islamic Jihad that came before it. It's not nearly the point of my reply, but good gotcha.

As for sources of how the PLO treated non-muslims during the civil war of lebanon, it's tough to find what you want. The whole civil war was about the christian factions vs the palestinian factions, with different entites in between with rapid shifting alliances.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#129

Post by DiggyJohnson »

fezfight wrote: post #85
skippyboxedhero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greed existed before 1975. Are you saying Americans aren't greedy? And that is why they are so rich? To be more specific: Lebanon was a country that had avoided the stuff going on elsewhere in the Middle East. The PLO gets involved, and the country implodes.

Yes, the cause of all human on human suffering since the dawn of time is greed. Its almost a tautology so maybe it didn't need to be said. For the record, I'm a Canadian who went to school with countless Lebanese people in Ottawa. I'm a big fan!

Greed cannot account for all of it. Ignorance, for example, comes to mind instantly.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#130

Post by narag »

chadash wrote: post #60
martincmartin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

We talk a lot about separation of powers, the constitution, etc. in the US, but until pretty recently, we failed to appreciate the fact that democracy is largely a cultural thing. It works because we believe it works. Go and read the Soviet Constitution of 1936 (Stalin) [1]. It talks about freedom of speech, freedom of press, assembly, demonstrations. It actually goes much further than the US constitution. It talks a…

Go and read the Soviet Constitution of 1936 (Stalin) [1].

That would be a waste of time. Stalin had no intention to do anything of that and everybody knew where dissension would send them: jail, gulags, torture and death.

That's not "a cultural thing", that's just cynism and propaganda. A cultural thing is when everybody wants to make it work but it never really works as intended. But that's more like the government with its full coercion power is against it!

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