Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#571

Post by apeace » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

conjecTech wrote: post #565

apeace wrote: post #558

Living in New York City, I've noticed that there are a whole lot of businesses that are either cash-only or card-only. I always understood the cash-only ones. If you can get plenty of customers who are willing to pay in cash, why would you want to pay credit card fees? The card-only ones were harder for me to understand, until I realized that handling cash costs money, too. Somebody needs to count it all at least onc…

This is a false dichotomy. Other countries have debit systems that solve all of the problems you outline and charge 0.1%.

Fair point, and I'd be happy if my coffee lady could get a better deal on card processing. I'm just saying that I don't view it as such a big disaster for card processors to be charging fees in general, given that it does provide a significant value to the business owner.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#572

Post by codyb » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 4:00 PM UTC

dfxm12 wrote: post #567

apeace wrote: post #558

Living in New York City, I've noticed that there are a whole lot of businesses that are either cash-only or card-only. I always understood the cash-only ones. If you can get plenty of customers who are willing to pay in cash, why would you want to pay credit card fees? The card-only ones were harder for me to understand, until I realized that handling cash costs money, too. Somebody needs to count it all at least onc…

The other side of this is that card only businesses de facto discriminate (not in an illegal way, of course) against people who don't have/can't get cards. Not being able to buy a cup of coffee from one particular coffee shop might not seem like a big deal, but it sends a signal as to who is/isn't wanted in the shop. Further, if it becomes a trend and all coffee shops go card only, spreading to other business like gr…

I'm pretty sure card only is illegal in NYC for precisely this reason. I come across them occasionally and I think the pandemic made it a bit more common place but it's technically against the law here to not accept cash.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/cashless-stores-restaurants-banned...

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#573

Post by vinsat » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 4:01 PM UTC

They should look at how India is trying to break this with both UPI (bank to bank transfer) and Rupay (India's own VISA)

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#574

Post by causi » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

apeace wrote: post #558

Living in New York City, I've noticed that there are a whole lot of businesses that are either cash-only or card-only. I always understood the cash-only ones. If you can get plenty of customers who are willing to pay in cash, why would you want to pay credit card fees? The card-only ones were harder for me to understand, until I realized that handling cash costs money, too. Somebody needs to count it all at least onc…

I wouldn't require someone to be able to provide change, but "accepting the currency of the nation you live in" seems like it should be one of the basic requirements of civilization.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#575

Post by nephanth » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

lxgr wrote: post #513

brewdad wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

u/vimy was talking about European banks. There is no "pull" there. People freely share their account info because one can only push money in with that info.

Quite the opposite – SEPA direct debit is an extremely successful payment scheme in many European countries.

Note that, at least in France, you can't do a SEPA direct debit with only the account number.

You need a SEPA dd "mandate" which is a (paper or electronic) document account owner asks their bank for, containing a unique identifier

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#576

Post by actionablefiber » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

codyb wrote: post #572

dfxm12 wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other side of this is that card only businesses de facto discriminate (not in an illegal way, of course) against people who don't have/can't get cards. Not being able to buy a cup of coffee from one particular coffee shop might not seem like a big deal, but it sends a signal as to who is/isn't wanted in the shop. Further, if it becomes a trend and all coffee shops go card only, spreading to other business like gr…

I'm pretty sure card only is illegal in NYC for precisely this reason. I come across them occasionally and I think the pandemic made it a bit more common place but it's technically against the law here to not accept cash. https://abcnews.go.com/US/cashless-stores-restaurants-banned...

I've seen posts on Reddit[1] that say that cashless establishments in NYC will just give you your food for free if you try to pay with cash. Never tried it though.

[1]https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/vcebns/im_an_ex_employ...

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#577

Post by mnd999 » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

actionablefiber wrote: post #576

codyb wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure card only is illegal in NYC for precisely this reason. I come across them occasionally and I think the pandemic made it a bit more common place but it's technically against the law here to not accept cash. https://abcnews.go.com/US/cashless-stores-restaurants-banned...

I've seen posts on Reddit[1] that say that cashless establishments in NYC will just give you your food for free if you try to pay with cash. Never tried it though. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/vcebns/im_an_ex_employ...

I dunno about US law but in the UK the law of legal tender requires you to accept payment of a debt in (exact) cash and if you've already eaten the food then a debt would certainly exist.

This would not apply in a shop of course as they could just refuse to sell you the goods.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#578

Post by dfxm12 » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

actionablefiber wrote: post #576

codyb wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure card only is illegal in NYC for precisely this reason. I come across them occasionally and I think the pandemic made it a bit more common place but it's technically against the law here to not accept cash. https://abcnews.go.com/US/cashless-stores-restaurants-banned...

I've seen posts on Reddit[1] that say that cashless establishments in NYC will just give you your food for free if you try to pay with cash. Never tried it though. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/vcebns/im_an_ex_employ...

Posts in that same thread also suggest that they won't.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#579

Post by TheRealPomax » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

Maybe start by not having banks that are so bad at actually doing what a bank should do that visa and mastercard can just move in and fill the gaping holes with credit cards. Until I moved to North America from Europe I had zero reason to even own a single one because banks just... you know... did banking. It's both possible and easy to send and receive money, without caring which banks are involved, instantly, for free.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#580

Post by apeace » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

codyb wrote: post #572

dfxm12 wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other side of this is that card only businesses de facto discriminate (not in an illegal way, of course) against people who don't have/can't get cards. Not being able to buy a cup of coffee from one particular coffee shop might not seem like a big deal, but it sends a signal as to who is/isn't wanted in the shop. Further, if it becomes a trend and all coffee shops go card only, spreading to other business like gr…

I'm pretty sure card only is illegal in NYC for precisely this reason. I come across them occasionally and I think the pandemic made it a bit more common place but it's technically against the law here to not accept cash. https://abcnews.go.com/US/cashless-stores-restaurants-banned...

Wow, I had no idea!

I work with a lot of unbanked individuals in low-income areas of NYC, so I am familiar with some of their struggles. I can't say I agree with this law, though. There was a store near me robbed at gunpoint not too long ago, and I felt so bad for the worker who had to go through that, not to mention how scary it is to feel like armed robbers are casing my neighborhood. So I feel glad for people like the coffee lady I mentioned, who have chosen to avoid that risk entirely.

I understand the good intentions behind the law, but I think there are other ways to help unbanked individuals that would still allow business owners to chose how they accept payment.