What Beirut was like before the war (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#41

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 2:56 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #32

martincmartin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

Because voting is just a small part of Democracy. Democracies need strong and independent, judicial, law making and executive branches. Voting itself is an averaging process, and you get the average of what ordinary citizen wants. It is hard to make people want good things for themselves without proactive investments in education and developing a population with scientific temper.

> Democracies need strong and independent, judicial, law making and executive branches.

Yes, absolutely, but they also depend on a strong civil society beyond government. You need a media that's interested in and capable of investigative reporting, a layer of trade unions and professional associations, and a social layer that integrates people. The units larger than extended family and smaller than the country. And they need to be somewhat independent, not all run by the Party, nor all aligned along ethnic or religious lines.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#42

Post by dakial1 » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:00 PM UTC

I thought it was going to be those terrible posts like those "look how Iran/Cuba/etc was much better for western touristic eyes before the uprising/war/revolution!" but at the end the author gives the plot twist.

"That was the time called Beirut Golden Era. And yet, while it was better in various aspects, Beirut has evolved significantly in many more, not only has it survived the destructive war but it has also progressed and become even lovelier today.

Yes, we have issues that need solving, and some are undergoing active solutions, but the golden era was not without issues neither. We just have to see how we have evolved and improved since then, while we continue our collective journey in making our country better and better. God bless Lebanon."

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#43

Post by _alxk » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:02 PM UTC

james-redwood wrote: post #6

rayiner wrote: post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

>largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon

Not accurate.

Until the early 90s and the rise of Hamas the most active Palestinian militant groups were secular, some were even Marxist/Leninist (as in, officially areligious).

Fatah, in control of the PLO, has always been secular and the second most active Palestinian militant group during the 1970s was the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a Marxist organisation led by a Palestinian Christian.

Political Islam as a force in Palestinian politics started in the 90s and only really became a big thing during the second intifada in the early 2000s.

The Wikipedia page [1] makes for an interesting read if you want to understand more about the Lebanese Civil War and the many groups and foreign interests involved in this tragic conflict. As for the Palestinians, they had a large refugee population established in Lebanon and the PLO leadership wanted a base for their militias; the Lebanese state understandably didn't want a parallel state operating with militias within their borders; this lit the fuse on a country with an already fragile sectarian balance and dozens of sizeable minorities that had grief with the state and each other.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#44

Post by _shadi » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

james-redwood wrote: post #6

rayiner wrote: post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

> largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon.

those damn communist and nationalist Palestinian factions wanting to create a caliphate.

Not interested in a political discussion, just wanted to point out that this guy has no idea about the Lebanese civil war or the history of the region

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#45

Post by buscoquadnary » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

the_only_law wrote: post #23

s5300 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, sometimes it’s the mongols.

Ironically, they’re probably more tolerant, though with more initial destruction.

Yep it's very easy to be tolerant whenever fears you. Remember the Mongols killed around 10% of the worlds population. The reason they could have tolerance is that you knew if you stepped one toe out of line the Mongols would destroy you, your family, rape the women, slaughter the town and everyone you knew, and then come back a few days later just to make sure they got everyone.

This is like saying China is super tolerant once they get rid of the Ughyrs.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#46

Post by finnh » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

james-redwood wrote: post #6

rayiner wrote: post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

Iran's decline began when the US overthrew Mossadegh's democratically elected government and installed the Shah, which led to the Ayatollah.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#47

Post by nonrandomstring » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:08 PM UTC

martincmartin wrote: post #29

nemesisj wrote: post #4

I follow the referenced instagram account and I actually find it depressing. I've probably visited Beirut 20+ times over the last 7 years. Last visit was summer of 2019, so haven't been since COVID. My company has an office there. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's also one of the most heartbreaking situations in economic and humanitarian terms. The country has experienced one of the worst currency cri…

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

Not the best or deepest account, but for the modern reader who can't spare time on Aristotle and a gamut of old beards [1] Acemoglu and Robinson's account is clear and interesting reading [2].

In the case of Lebanon, the story is that it's ethnic/religious diversity is too much for stability, it being constantly open to interference from its neighbours and super-powers playing proxy war games.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_philosophers

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#48

Post by gautamdivgi » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:09 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #24

rayiner wrote: post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

'Colonial Influences' were exactly what they were - 'Colonial Influences', Here in India, British barely spent money on education, or industrialising the country. Whatever little infrastructure got built, was done to ensure British could efficiently siphon off whatever they were trying to take from here. To that effect, the pictures of modernism you see from the colonies are restricted to a few cities, and a few mino…

Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. It’s actually the truth.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#49

Post by babarock » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

james-redwood wrote: post #6

rayiner wrote: post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

Your description of Lebanon is correct, but incomplete.

- Lebanon (as an independent state) has been created in 1920, right after WW1 by the French "colonialists" specifically to draw an enclave of non-muslim minority in the country. It's classic Divide&Conquer strategy.

- The PLO (Palestinian Islamists) did try to set up an Islamic state in the country, but they were aided, or at least encouraged through inaction, by the muslims in the country who felt that the system was unfair.

- Currently the conflict isn't "muslims vs non-muslim". It's much more a conflict between Shia muslims (affiliated to Iran) and Sunni muslims (affiliated to KSA/Gulf). The non-muslims are now a minority and are split more or less evenly across the two camps.

- As of today, there's a lack of national identity, where every region's local lord amasses more power and influence than any "central" government.

It's not as simple as "they were non-muslims, got invaded by muslims and now it's gone bad"

Source: I'm Lebanese. PS: Pedantically, we became independent in 1943.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#50

Post by shagmin » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 3:15 PM UTC

martincmartin wrote: post #29

nemesisj wrote: post #4

I follow the referenced instagram account and I actually find it depressing. I've probably visited Beirut 20+ times over the last 7 years. Last visit was summer of 2019, so haven't been since COVID. My company has an office there. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's also one of the most heartbreaking situations in economic and humanitarian terms. The country has experienced one of the worst currency cri…

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

This is a topic I find interesting. Out of any society in the world, in some form or another there always emerges some de facto leaders. And in some places in the modern world they will adopt democracy only so much as they know they can "win" elections and harness goodwill from other democracies. In some places being directly involved with the government is the only way to live with some luxury.

Main thing is I think there has to be some sort of cultivation of democracy (and some associated values), or it's just a facade or mob rule. It seems easier if the citizens are already middle-upper class for instance. We underestimate how much people need to be "primed" for democracy for it to flourish, it's also a more active process ideally that requires engagement, which isn't always so viable.