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Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

economist.com

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Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#541

Post by ChicagoBoy11 »

andersonmvd wrote: post #43

In Brazil many stores are dropping credit card and allowing only PIX (instant debit transfer) cause it's cheaper for business (0,22% avg transaction fee vs 1%-2% of credit cards - src (pt-only) https://g1.globo.com/economia/pme/noticia/2022/03/23/pix-e-m... ). The President of Brazilian Central Bank recently said that "credit cards will soon cease to exist" src (pt only) https://www.poder360.com.br/economia/campos-ne…

This should be hire up. I live in the US but went to visit family in Brazil, and after setting up my PIX payment, I was honestly kinda shocked at how incredible it seemed. It boils down to a very well implemented, super versatile, public Venmo-like system. I'd hazard a guess that startup ideas around leveraging this new infrastructure may be a great idea the moment.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#542

Post by ballenf »

philip1209 wrote: post #49

Fraud protection of credit cards is the root of modern e-commerce. In some ways, Visa and Mastercard are the privatized court systems of the internet. If I end up on a random, self-hosted ecommerce site and decide to make a purchase - what guarantee do I have that the item will show up or be as-described? If I bought something through a bank transfer, reversing that purchase would be incredibly difficult. And, suing…

> And, suing a merchant is prohibitively slow, expensive, and arduous.

Is that true because credit cards mean there's no incentive to make the court process more efficient?

That is, without credit cards playing that role courts would become more efficient and less expensive.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#543

Post by ciabattabread »

arcticbull wrote: post #172
holistio wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody really has rewards. We don't have them in Europe, and some people in the USA think they have them. What they have is crazy high credit card fees and the need to juggle a bunch around to get a few things credit card companies decided to buy for you en masse. When I buy a $5 latte, I give Visa $0.01. When you do the same, you pay $0.15. Come the hell on. "REWARDS". Smh.

Citi Double Cash is a 2% cash-back no annual fee card. Interchange benefits merchants too - there's real costs associated with holding cash, and average cart sizes are significantly bigger for credit cards. They also miss out on fewer sales. You may not value rewards programs but customers, card issuers and certainly those who operate those programs do. They're massive business. Frequently the only profitable part of…

So can we consider the airline a division of a major bank?

Chase - United

Citibank - American Airlines

AMEX - Delta

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#544

Post by mhrmsn »

lima wrote: post #504
Veliladon wrote: post #42

The only thing I don't want to happen is for the duopoly to be broken up into a billion different little fiefdoms each with their own unregulated space. One of the reasons credit cards are so good is because there's a fuckton of regulations built into the legislation behind them in order to give an individual consumer a fighting chance against the financial industry. All these fintech companies wanting ACH access to…

That's how it works in Europe (SEPA mandate) and it doesn't appear to be a problem. In Germany, very few people have credit cards, and mostly for online purchases. Everything else is done via direct debit. Fraudulent charges can be reversed just like a CC payment.

Are you talking about the Girocard (EC-Karte) system? Because there's also a lot of direct debit cards around that are all Mastercard/Visa branded.

It's true though that using "real" credit cards is relatively uncommon.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#545

Post by skimo8 »

misterprime wrote: post #211
skimo8 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use it for cash back. It helps to significantly offset sales tax for me. Yes, the money is always coming from somewhere and arguably products might be cheaper without credit cards. However, it’s the game we’re in, so why leave money on the table?

cash back *rewards. Please don't use your credit cards for cash advances unless you REALLY know what you're doing and why.

Apologies - I was indeed referring to the cash back rewards.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#546

Post by LatteLazy »

philip1209 wrote: post #49

Fraud protection of credit cards is the root of modern e-commerce. In some ways, Visa and Mastercard are the privatized court systems of the internet. If I end up on a random, self-hosted ecommerce site and decide to make a purchase - what guarantee do I have that the item will show up or be as-described? If I bought something through a bank transfer, reversing that purchase would be incredibly difficult. And, suing…

FYI, in the UK we have a scheme called Direct Debits where you authorise companies to take recurring payments from your bank account directly (including of variable amounts eg for utilities). So you don't "need" credit cards for that. You can cancel them immediately via the bank and you're fully protected against bad charges.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#547

Post by LatteLazy »

moffkalast wrote: post #251
atombender wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...In the US. Outside the US, credit cards are much less common outside the US. The alternative to credit cards isn't CoD, it's debit cards, which are connected directly to a bank account. Merchants love debit cards because they have near-zero transaction fees. You don't need credit card for chargebacks, just strong consumer protection laws that permit the bank to claw the money back from the merchant. As for fraud,…

The thing about debit cards though, it's a different system and they don't work for online payments which makes them effectively useless. > People seem more wary of accruing debt in Europe; it's easy to lose control over your personal finances with a credit card. Well using credit means you're taking a loan, and subsequently paying interest on that loan even if it's just a month. Why would you pay interest on a loan…

I (limey brit) use my debit cards all the time online...

To be clear, they're VISA cards issues by the bank with a 16 digit main number and the payment appears on my bank statement within about 5 minutes.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#548

Post by al2o3cr »

jpollock wrote: post #105

I don't understand how this is possible: "Merchants hand over some $138bn in fees each year; according to the National Retail Federation, a lobby group, it is their second-biggest cost after wages." Unless they're talking about more than just credit card fees? From the same article: "But credit-card fees are unregulated and meatier, usually sitting at about 2% of the transaction and rising to 3.5% for some premium-re…

    I don't understand how this is possible
Here's the explanation:

    according to the National Retail Federation, a lobby group
Spoiler alert: most lobbyists are professional liars. If pressed they'll put up a smokescreen of "well I meant _operating_ costs, which of course are far smaller than cost-of-goods" but the lie is still printed in the article...

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#549

Post by justinpombrio »

guntab-dan wrote: post #331
lotsofpulp wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone. This is available to most people in the US via Zelle. I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. https://www.zellepay.com/get-started Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all, but for now the functionality is there for those who can get a bank…

The problem with Zelle is that it's not safe to use for anything except payments to friends and family. The Zelle user agreement [1] puts this warning in all-caps: "YOU SHOULD NOT USE THE ZELLE® SERVICE TO SEND MONEY TO PERSONS WITH WHOM YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR OR YOU DO NOT TRUST. ZELLE® DOES NOT OFFER A PROTECTION PROGRAM FOR AUTHORIZED PAYMENTS MADE WITH THE SERVICE" [1] https://www.zellepay.com/legal/user-service-ag…

And this isn't a hypothetical concern. People have sent money through Zelle to the wrong person, either through scam or by mis-typing a phone number, and Zelle support has been very clear that there's no way to get your money back. There was a previous HN post about it.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#550

Post by hnburnsy »

nullfield wrote: post #479
kccqzy wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zelle is not always instant. There are two ways for a Zelle transaction to clear. The fast one goes through the Visa network, the same network for credit cards and debit cards. The slow ones goes through ACH, which takes several days. It is generally not possible for two recipients to know which network Zelle will use beforehand. ADDENDUM: The official marketing page for Zelle at https://www.zellepay.com/faq/how-long…

Given who owns Zelle and what they do, and that they’re not a bank, I really want zero to do with them. They’re sus AF, IMO, and I’m just waiting for there to be a serious incident.

>Zelle is a United States–based digital payments network owned by Early Warning Services, LLC, a private financial services company owned by the banks Bank of America, Truist, Capital One, JPMorgan Chase, PNC Bank, U.S. Bank, and Wells Fargo.

So it is owned by the banks, but the banks that own and offer it don't give any protections.

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