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What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

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Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#31

Post by rayiner »

VictorPath wrote: post #22
rayiner wrote: post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

> Egypt and Iran are similar Mossadegh wanted a secular independent Iran, England empowered the mullahs and worked for decades to destroy the secular left in Iran (along with the US). Eventually even the mullahs and bazaari turned against western colonialism. The west also worked against Nasser's secular pan-Arab socialism, including the French/English invasion of the Suez.

Secularism is also a western import. Mosdadegh was educated in Switzerland, after all.

This is in the context of India, but does a good job explaining the phenomenon: https://unherd.com/2021/04/the-culture-wars-of-post-colonial...

Turkey and Bangladesh are other good examples of countries where elites tried to impose secularism, and succeeded for a time, but which ultimately failed because the public didn’t want it.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#32

Post by kamaal »

martincmartin wrote: post #29
nemesisj wrote: post #4

I follow the referenced instagram account and I actually find it depressing. I've probably visited Beirut 20+ times over the last 7 years. Last visit was summer of 2019, so haven't been since COVID. My company has an office there. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's also one of the most heartbreaking situations in economic and humanitarian terms. The country has experienced one of the worst currency cri…

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

Because voting is just a small part of Democracy. Democracies need strong and independent, judicial, law making and executive branches.

Voting itself is an averaging process, and you get the average of what ordinary citizen wants. It is hard to make people want good things for themselves without proactive investments in education and developing a population with scientific temper.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#33

Post by zeveb »

It’s so much easier to destroy than to build. That applies to buildings, but it also applies to cultures and civilisations. The work of centuries — even of millennia — can be broken in decades or even years.

And what’s worse is that there’s not much one can do about it. One can preserve what one has inherited, and try to increase it, but others can knock it down much more easily.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#34

Post by narrator »

ecopoesis wrote: post #11
james-redwood wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

Quoted post unavailable.

Like the religious extremists that destroyed American cities like Detroit and Baltimore in the 70s and after? Maybe it was this same religious extremism that is leading to the economic crisis today in Florida and Texas? /s

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#35

Post by epolanski »

One of the things I've learned about Lebanese is that the scars of war are very vivid in society and it changed it for generations.

One side effect of the wars is that Lebanese people live much less programmatically and far planning than pretty much any other society out there. They try to enjoy life as much as possible and I believe they rank highest in the world for how much they go to the barber and how much they spend on cosmetics, etc. They care more for looking good to themselves and others to day than to save for tomorrow.

They live like they are forever in a truce thus they do their very best to find the glass half full rather than half empty and all that makes them very friendly, open and beautiful people that do their best at enjoying everything before the next bad thing will hit their country.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#36

Post by csomar »

nemesisj wrote: post #4

I follow the referenced instagram account and I actually find it depressing. I've probably visited Beirut 20+ times over the last 7 years. Last visit was summer of 2019, so haven't been since COVID. My company has an office there. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's also one of the most heartbreaking situations in economic and humanitarian terms. The country has experienced one of the worst currency cri…

> Beirut and Lebanon has to be one of the largest missed opportunities or what-could-have-been situations of the last 100 years.

I think what makes the potential of the city is also what makes it get into severe conflict. Beirut is a cross-road of global interests. I think it still is. It also has huge and wealthy diaspora.

Beirut will certainly come back, and most likely (unluckily) will come bursting again.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#37

Post by TremendousJudge »

kamaal wrote: post #24
rayiner wrote: post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

'Colonial Influences' were exactly what they were - 'Colonial Influences', Here in India, British barely spent money on education, or industrialising the country. Whatever little infrastructure got built, was done to ensure British could efficiently siphon off whatever they were trying to take from here. To that effect, the pictures of modernism you see from the colonies are restricted to a few cities, and a few mino…

>I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case with other former colonies of Europe.

In Latin America, the central extractivist structure was kept after independence, only the owners changed. Now instead of a foreign crown siphoning off the wealth, it was the local owners of the land -- who still sold as much as they could to foreign powers, and spent the rest in petty civil wars against their own people. Another common occurrence was involving foreign powers in local disputes, as the landowners always put their own interests before the interests of the country.

Nowadays it's less overt in most places, but it's still going on.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#38

Post by csomar »

martincmartin wrote: post #29
nemesisj wrote: post #4

I follow the referenced instagram account and I actually find it depressing. I've probably visited Beirut 20+ times over the last 7 years. Last visit was summer of 2019, so haven't been since COVID. My company has an office there. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's also one of the most heartbreaking situations in economic and humanitarian terms. The country has experienced one of the worst currency cri…

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

All systems will have a tendency toward corruption. Democracy is really a facade and a political tool and not what runs a country. The bureaucrats in the government are what run a country; and they hold most of the cards. (and they are also very difficult to change or replace).

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#39

Post by kamaal »

rayiner wrote: post #31
VictorPath wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Egypt and Iran are similar Mossadegh wanted a secular independent Iran, England empowered the mullahs and worked for decades to destroy the secular left in Iran (along with the US). Eventually even the mullahs and bazaari turned against western colonialism. The west also worked against Nasser's secular pan-Arab socialism, including the French/English invasion of the Suez.

Secularism is also a western import. Mosdadegh was educated in Switzerland, after all. This is in the context of India, but does a good job explaining the phenomenon: https://unherd.com/2021/04/the-culture-wars-of-post-colonial... Turkey and Bangladesh are other good examples of countries where elites tried to impose secularism, and succeeded for a time, but which ultimately failed because the public didn’t want it.

Speaking in the context of India, you can argue secularism has sort of failed here too. The problem happens to be with the top-down approach. You can't exactly ram down these political concepts down peoples throats. And when the popular leaders who were executing these concepts die, in time these projects fail.

Secularism really is more of a process than a law, you can't exactly legislate a culture into people. On the longer term, you need lots of good intentions sustained over decades, and you need investments in education sector to keep them going.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#40

Post by campground »

james-redwood wrote: post #6
rayiner wrote: post #3

Lots of places in the Middle East were more European like this before the colonial influences weakened and the Muslim majority populations got back more power over their own countries. Egypt and Iran are similar. The nostalgia is somewhat uncomfortable because in some respects things were better because they were better, but in others it’s the perception of things being better because they’re more relatable to Europe…

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

Iran may not have been colonized but their democratic government was overthrown by the US and Britain to prevent them nationalizing their fossil fuel supply.

I often wonder what the Middle East would look like today if Iran has been able to use their oil wealth for their own democratic civil development.

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