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Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

economist.com

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Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#501

Post by moffkalast »

crote wrote: post #270
moffkalast wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about debit cards though, it's a different system and they don't work for online payments which makes them effectively useless. > People seem more wary of accruing debt in Europe; it's easy to lose control over your personal finances with a credit card. Well using credit means you're taking a loan, and subsequently paying interest on that loan even if it's just a month. Why would you pay interest on a loan…

Ehhh, no? Our debit cards are used for in-store payments, and literally every single bank allows you to use them for online payments too. We just developed systems which don't depend on handing random people a bunch of "secret" numbers and hoping they don't defraud you. For example, in The Netherlands *everyone* uses iDeal. Basically, the store does a 302 redirect on checkout to your bank, sending along the money owe…

> literally every single bank allows you to use them for online payments too

Please tell me how the hell I should input a 19 digit debit maestro card into 16 digit credit card number slots. It even has letters.

> iDeal

Seems like it's only a Dutch thing according to the wiki.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#502

Post by klabb3 »

kube-system wrote: post #350
klabb3 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing about cryptocurrencies that mandates irreversible transactions. A decentralized buffer/escrow system is quite possible, it wouldn't surprise me if it already exists.

True, but then you need someone to manage the escrow payouts. And doing that requires a trusted third party to do work, and so they charge fees to finance that. So, basically reinventing a credit card company, but on a blockchain. And these services do exist and are in use on some tor network marketplaces.

> So, basically reinventing a credit card company, but on a blockchain.

I don't expect fees to be much lower for a third party human-in-the-loop escrow system. And there's nothing wrong with "re-inventing" either. I think it's critical however that you can have strong censorship resistance and opportunity for innovation. So personally I'm more interested in the unknown unknowns, rather than recreating exactly the same.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#503

Post by CaptainZapp »

ironick09 wrote: post #305
maccard wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the EU credit cards can't be charged more than other payment methods anymore, so _youre_ not paying 3% more.

EU credit cards also don’t have any (or anything close to) the benefits US cards have, right?

Personally I think that's a good thing.

And yes, it's reflected in the fees that a card issuer is allowed to charge.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#504

Post by lima »

Veliladon wrote: post #42

The only thing I don't want to happen is for the duopoly to be broken up into a billion different little fiefdoms each with their own unregulated space. One of the reasons credit cards are so good is because there's a fuckton of regulations built into the legislation behind them in order to give an individual consumer a fighting chance against the financial industry. All these fintech companies wanting ACH access to…

That's how it works in Europe (SEPA mandate) and it doesn't appear to be a problem.

In Germany, very few people have credit cards, and mostly for online purchases. Everything else is done via direct debit. Fraudulent charges can be reversed just like a CC payment.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#505

Post by tushar-r »

pvsukale3 wrote: post #451

India is breaking this dominance by government backed Rupay and UPI payment methods. Both have 0 MDR charges. Rupay is a direct alternative to Visa and MasterCard. UPI is peer to peer payment system for any bank account linked with a phone and debit card. So far government has been successfully in both of these endeavours. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuPay?wprov=sfla1 https://www.business-standard.com/article/econo…

>Both have 0 MDR charges.

Possibly not for long - https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/money-and-banking/rbi-m...

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#506

Post by withinboredom »

ryandrake wrote: post #348
Rackedup wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty rare that my AMEX card gets refused...

Maybe USA-specific, but I've been AMEX-only for around 20 years, and have no regrets. They handle fraud and chargebacks with almost no effort or followup required. Very infrequently, I'll run into a cheap-ass merchant who doesn't take AMEX, and I will either not do business with them or just pay in cash.

Yeah, AMEX has lots of issues getting accepted outside the US. Some places won't accept tap-to-pay for Amex, but only chip+pin, or various other oddities, if they accept it at all.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#507

Post by baxuz »

mchusma wrote: post #203
philip1209 wrote: post #49

Fraud protection of credit cards is the root of modern e-commerce. In some ways, Visa and Mastercard are the privatized court systems of the internet. If I end up on a random, self-hosted ecommerce site and decide to make a purchase - what guarantee do I have that the item will show up or be as-described? If I bought something through a bank transfer, reversing that purchase would be incredibly difficult. And, suing…

I am an online merchant. The visa Mastercard fees are enormously high, so not. We are not "happy to pay it". The 3% is not to cover any consumer protection, that cost is born by the merchants. When a dispute is made by a customer, the merchant is assessed a fee, and almost always loses the dispute. The fees are so high that credit card companies give extremely high rewards back, which is in effect a regressive tax. I…

It should be like that in the EU (https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/de/MEMO_1...)

    2.1 Why does the proposed Regulation cap interchange fees at 0.2% and 0.3% for debit and credit card transactions respectively?

    The 0.2% and 0.3% caps were proposed by schemes (Visa Europe, MasterCard, Groupement des Cartes Bancaires2) in competition proceedings and appear practical as providing legal certainty while not threatening the viability of these schemes. These levels are based on an estimate of the fee at which a merchant would be indifferent between being paid by card or in cash. The figures have been developed using data from the central banks of Belgium, the Netherlands and Sweden on the cost of payment instruments.
However in practice, fees are still 3%-5% for merchants. No idea why.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#508

Post by lotsofpulp »

jjav wrote: post #466
lotsofpulp wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get a minimum 2.6% cash back on everything I purchase, but most things I get 3.5% to 5.25% cash back. There are a bunch of free 2% cash back credit cards, so people would at least break even if they wanted to.

> I get a minimum 2.6% cash back on everything I purchase, but most things I get 3.5% to 5.25% cash back. Which credit card do you have? I'd like to ugprade to that one.

BoA customized cash rewards and premium rewards with the 75% bonus by having $100k at BoA/ML. And Costco citi visa for fuel and appliances (due to extra 2 years on warranty).

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#509

Post by soco »

lonesword wrote: post #481
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, absolutely. It is totally embarrassing to watch my UK family or EU friends interact with their banking systems and compare it with the US. To be fair, things are improving a little bit. But we're still so very far behind the EU banking system. Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone.

Are you saying that the USA is still far behind the EU banking system? That's news to me - I've always assumed that banking, of all things, would be far superior in the US. I've always imagined that the experience in the US, at least compared to German banks, would be one of slick apps and super-friendly paperwork because 1) banks want your money 2) something something capitalism. When I want to do a domestic transfe…

As you noticed, the involved banks must accept SEPA for that. And it's another dimension to do that across many country borders and so many local banks, while in India everything happens in the same jurisdiction, I assume (same for USA for that matter)
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