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Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

economist.com

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Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#491

Post by mcv »

parineum wrote: post #223
mcv wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one can drain ky bank account through my payment card either. For one, they lack the authorisation to do so, and for another, there's a limit (which I can change) to how much can be transferred per day.

> For one, they lack the authorisation to do so I suppose someone should tell the criminals. > there's a limit (which I can change) to how much can be transferred per day. I expect many banks/cards have this ability as well. People just don't use it. Hell, I have a virtual card I frequently use on websites that has a $50 limit per day. I'm sure most other companies have something similar available.

> I suppose someone should tell the criminals.

I think they already know, because their efforts are mostly focused on trying to get that authorization. But whether you know about it or not, no authorization means you can't access the money. Requiring explicit authorization is key to security, and I'm extremely wary of payment systems that don't require it, like credit cards.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#492

Post by mcv »

happyopossum wrote: post #220
mcv wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one can drain ky bank account through my payment card either. For one, they lack the authorisation to do so, and for another, there's a limit (which I can change) to how much can be transferred per day.

> they lack the authorisation to do so How does the German banking system prevent an unscrupulous online retailer from charging you 500€ for a 50€ item? Or charging you twice?

I don't know how it works in Germany, but in the Dutch system, iDeal, I see the amount I'm authorizing. Of course if I'm sloppy and rapidly clicking through my bank's screens, I might not notice it if they changed the amount at the last moment, but any merchant that can be shown to do that would probably be in a heap of trouble.

I do think it's possible to authorize an unspecified amount; automated gas pumps seem to do that, but they seem to be the only ones, and it probably has a hard maximum.

Of course any PIN transaction that goes through the merchant's equipment is not quite as secure and relies on a level of trust that's not necessary for online payments, where I give my authorization through my own bank's website.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#493

Post by nirimda »

jjav wrote: post #459
einpoklum wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Extra hassle of interaction with a second company other than your bank, extra credentials, tracking balances, etc. etc. When I was living in the Netherlands I had my bank-account-attached Maestro card (or sometimes cash) and that was that. Except when foreign companies needed a credit card. 2. Fees. The whole point of credit cards - for the CC companies of course - is fees.

> Extra hassle of interaction with a second company other than your bank Nearly every (probably every) bank issues credit cards (they'll ultimately be Visa or MC, but cobranded by your bank) if you want to get everything from one place. > Fees. The whole point of credit cards - for the CC companies of course - is fees. What fees? There are no fees. In fact there are nearly always cash back (or points, or something) t…

> What fees? There are no fees.

I guess that depends on the legal system. In some places the merchant frequently passes the fees on to the customer (and any contract between the payment network and the merchant which prohibits it is invalid to that extent by law). Then you need to consider the rules of the place you're in and decide which card to pull out, and you probably have your default card on Apple/Google/Samsung Pay set to be the debit card.

I think it's also common for a credit card to have an annual fee that probably doesn't apply to a debit card.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#494

Post by vmilner »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #150
cycomanic wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As your post illustrates credit cards are really a solution developped for the deficiencies in the US banking system which have been exported to the rest of the world due to the dominance of the US market. 20 years when I was still living in Germany, hardly anyone had a credit card, while everyone was using automatic payments and electronic wiretransfers. I was very surprised when later (about 13 years ago) a US frie…

This, absolutely. It is totally embarrassing to watch my UK family or EU friends interact with their banking systems and compare it with the US. To be fair, things are improving a little bit. But we're still so very far behind the EU banking system. Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone.

A very annoying thing in the U.K. recently is that companies are making it more difficult to make ongoing payments via “direct debits” which have a high level of consumer protection and encourage people to use “continuous payment authorities” from debit and credit cards which allow companies to take money almost at will, and are extremely time consuming to cancel by the customer.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#495

Post by mcv »

martijnvds wrote: post #454
vimy wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal SEPA is max 2 days and usually it takes one. That’s not what I would call super slow.

Most SEPA transfers (even between countries) are now instant, I've noticed.

Same here. I've got accounts at two different banks, and when I transfer money from one to the other, it's usually there literally the moment I approve the transaction. Within a second. I don't know if it's just as smooth across (internal EU) borders, but I don't see why it wouldn't be.

It's possible that it does require both banks to have implemented these instant payments. Both side have the ability to delay the transfer, but it's possible that these days they're required to support instant transactions.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#496

Post by GekkePrutser »

Symbiote wrote: post #482
ferdowsi wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The credit card companies strongly push merchants to adopt EMV chips by shifting liability for chargebacks onto merchants who are still using magstripes. I don't think I've seen a non-chip capable terminal in the last year.

The liability shift in Britain was on 1 January 2005 . In the USA, gas station transactions only had this shift in 2021. > The magnetic stripe will start to disappear in 2024 from Mastercard payment cards in regions, such as Europe, where chip cards are already widely used. Banks in the U.S. will no longer be required to issue chip cards with a magnetic stripe, starting in 2027. [1] My cards' magnetic stripes haven't…

Oh great to hear that the magstripe is disappearing!

Not being able to use my card in remote areas abroad without chip+pin is not an issue for me. I'm much more concerned with skimming. Especially because even if the bank guarantees it, it's still a big hassle.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#497

Post by moffkalast »

veeti wrote: post #316
moffkalast wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about debit cards though, it's a different system and they don't work for online payments which makes them effectively useless. > People seem more wary of accruing debt in Europe; it's easy to lose control over your personal finances with a credit card. Well using credit means you're taking a loan, and subsequently paying interest on that loan even if it's just a month. Why would you pay interest on a loan…

European debit cards such as Visa Debit or former Electron are practically no different from a credit card in making online payments. They work just fine. There are also credit + debit combination cards, which have two different numbers to use. They also let you choose which side to use on the payment terminal.

Yeah though those aren't true debit cards, at least not in the original sense. They're credit cards that work like debit cards that I mentioned now exist.

Actual debit cards are issued by banks and only have the much longer account number on them.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#498

Post by moffkalast »

lomoeffect wrote: post #319
moffkalast wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about debit cards though, it's a different system and they don't work for online payments which makes them effectively useless. > People seem more wary of accruing debt in Europe; it's easy to lose control over your personal finances with a credit card. Well using credit means you're taking a loan, and subsequently paying interest on that loan even if it's just a month. Why would you pay interest on a loan…

>The thing about debit cards though, it's a different system and they don't work for online payments which makes them effectively useless. Everything in your opening sentence is incorrect.

Tell that to my bank lol.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#499

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

chrismcb wrote: post #472
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you in terms of the value of credit cards, the issue is whether their fees are worth it. Their huge profit margins, as well as how they previously fought tooth and nail against, for example, allowing merchants to levy a credit card surcharge, suggest that their duopoly position is allowing them to charge exorbitant amounts for their services.

Worth it to whom? It costs money to deal with transactions. Whether that is cash or credit. 3% can actually be easier and cheaper than dealing with large sums of cash

Abnormally large profit margins, as outlined in this article, mean that it's the lack of competition that is responsible for keeping fees high.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#500

Post by shreyshnaccount »

cycomanic wrote: post #103
philip1209 wrote: post #49

Fraud protection of credit cards is the root of modern e-commerce. In some ways, Visa and Mastercard are the privatized court systems of the internet. If I end up on a random, self-hosted ecommerce site and decide to make a purchase - what guarantee do I have that the item will show up or be as-described? If I bought something through a bank transfer, reversing that purchase would be incredibly difficult. And, suing…

As your post illustrates credit cards are really a solution developped for the deficiencies in the US banking system which have been exported to the rest of the world due to the dominance of the US market. 20 years when I was still living in Germany, hardly anyone had a credit card, while everyone was using automatic payments and electronic wiretransfers. I was very surprised when later (about 13 years ago) a US frie…

yeah, even in India, most online businesses support UPI (unified payment interface) wallets and apps like paytm which can also easily work with subscriptions, and can be connected to your bank account for instant payments. they payments infra in India is unbelievably awesome
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