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Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

economist.com

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Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#391

Post by justinc8687 »

vimy wrote: post #342
snazz wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, how do European banks avoid this issue? If my debit card or ACH info is compromised and someone drains my checking account, is there a way to use the stolen funds before the bank/court finishes their investigation?

When you know someone’s bank account number you can only send them money. This issue simply isn’t possible.

That's not true. As a business, at least, I can run an ACH Debit[0] with just a routing number, account number and name. NACHA rules prohibit this, but nothing programmatically prevents this from happening.

[0] https://plaid.com/resources/ach/how-does-an-ach-transfer-wor....

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#392

Post by avrionov »

echelon wrote: post #72
alberth wrote: post #18

Let’s compare against other consumer choices. Can the … - Coke-Pepsi duopoly be broken? - Google-Baidu? - Nearly any professional sport is a monopoly (NFL, NBA, etc) And soooo many more.

> Coke-Pepsi duopoly be broken? Dr.Pepper, Monster Beverage, Redbull, Asahi, Arizona, and thousands of other smaller players exist. > Google-Baidu? Google is a search monopoly for English speakers. Steps should be taken to remove Google's ability to enforce via Chrome and Android, or prioritize adsense sites. Perhaps the DOJ can split their business units or force third party offerings to be required. > Nearly any pr…

Monster Beverage is owned by Coca-Cola.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#393

Post by SOLAR_FIELDS »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #292
acchow wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. Zelle launched in June 2017

It was rebranded, but the functionality existed before, at least if you were transferring between the big banks. > In April 2011, the clearXchange service was launched. It was originally owned and operated by Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, and Wells Fargo.[6][7] The service offered person-to-person (P2P), business-to-consumer (B2C), and government-to-consumer (G2C) payments.[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(…

Chase’s version was called QuickPay and was rebranded to Zelle around that time. Until its rebranding it was only available to transfer between two Chase accounts if I remember correctly. I used it to pay rent from 2014 to 2017.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#394

Post by eek2121 »

AlexandrB wrote: post #235
lotsofpulp wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone. This is available to most people in the US via Zelle. I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. https://www.zellepay.com/get-started Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all, but for now the functionality is there for those who can get a bank…

It's also available in Canada through Interac. I'm still shocked when I go to the US and have to sign for a credit card transaction. Last time I did that in Canada was when Bush was president.

That is going away fast. The last time I signed for a credit card was...in Canada. I use a credit card literally everywhere. I do not use my bank account for anything beyond paying the card and 2 other bills. I do this for rewards, payment protection, zero transaction fees (including foreign, like those in Canada, a country in which I visit often). The credit card gets paid off once a month directly from my bank account.

The only exception to this is restaurants, however that is also the case in Canada, and even if I use my debit card, they still bring me the reader, make my stick my card in, print the receipt, and sign by hand.

Where are you in Canada? I regularly visit parts of eastern Canada, including Toronto and Quebec.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#395

Post by SOLAR_FIELDS »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #276
ars wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all They are working on it: FedNow https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about....

Less than 5 years ago, the Hongkong retail bank system used to charge about 50 HKD to transfer money online to another local bank. Absolute highway robbery / price fixing. Most absurd: Writing a check was free. Can you imagine the comparative operational cost??? Later, the central bank introduced an free, instant, money transfer system, and forced all banks to join. Paying my rent suddenly dropped 50 HKD per month!

Insane. In the States we have similar gouging with fees when you pay with a card, but some law states that a fee cannot be collected for checks. So I paid rent with a check for the majority of my adult life before Zelle came along even though the option to pay with a card was available.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#396

Post by mgfist »

scarface74 wrote: post #313
holistio wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody really has rewards. We don't have them in Europe, and some people in the USA think they have them. What they have is crazy high credit card fees and the need to juggle a bunch around to get a few things credit card companies decided to buy for you en masse. When I buy a $5 latte, I give Visa $0.01. When you do the same, you pay $0.15. Come the hell on. "REWARDS". Smh.

Well, my wife and I are kind of the degenerate case of getting credit card rewards since we are “digital nomads” traveling across the US, staying in mid tier Hilton hotels, using Uber, and flying everywhere. This means that 100% of our personal spending[1] goes on credit cards unlike most people who have car notes and mortgages/rent that they can’t put on credit cards. Just on credit cards we get: - 7-10% back on fli…

Glad it works for you but sounds like a personal haha

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#397

Post by artificialLimbs »

giovannibonetti wrote: post #279
organsnyder wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a network of some sort, unless each bank has to maintain a direct interface with every other bank.

The central bank can do that. That's how it works for instant payments in my country (Pix payments in Brazil).

That seems even less appealing than the sideways system we have in the U.S.

Is there any percent chance that the government doesn't wiretap all those transactions?

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#398

Post by laurencerowe »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #165
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, absolutely. It is totally embarrassing to watch my UK family or EU friends interact with their banking systems and compare it with the US. To be fair, things are improving a little bit. But we're still so very far behind the EU banking system. Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone.

> Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone. This is available to most people in the US via Zelle. I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. https://www.zellepay.com/get-started Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all, but for now the functionality is there for those who can get a bank…

Sadly the limits on Zelle are too low to pay rent (at least on SF) and it lacks the ability to setup recurring payments (what in the U.K. we would call a standing order.)

BillPay seems the only viable option and that ends up with a physical paper check being mailed to your landlord every month so you have to set them off a few days early to account for possible delays in the mail.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#399

Post by Spooky23 »

jollybean wrote: post #362
Spooky23 wrote: post #296

The whole premise of the article is dumb. Lots of small businesses like to cry about credit card fees, which is absurd given the value offered for the price charged. Not only do they drive spending, but they eliminate the casual embezzlement and pilferage that plagues cash businesses. My grandfather ran pubs, and use to quip that he’d fire any honest bartender, because the guy was smarter than him. When I was in coll…

I think this is completely wrong. It's not the 'credit' that drives this, so much as the 'digitization'. That can be achieved without credit. European countries have been doing it for a long time. Canada has 'Interac'. There is utterly no need for VISA/MC. A fairly simple banking standard could make it so that you could pay for stuff with some kind of card + PIN and that's it. There'd be a tiny fee which would help t…

Perhaps, but the US has a very different journey. Canada for example has like 60 banks. The US has 10,000+ banks and credit unions, and probably 3x more when the system started.

Interop is different.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#400

Post by em_te »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #329
SergeAx wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buuuuut as banks they have a totally different privacy policy than a 3rd party payment system, aren't they?

I have no idea. I just assume everything I do electronically is tracked.

But fraud-wise Zelle doesn't seem as protective as regular banks:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/business/payments-fraud-z...

> “It’s like the banks have colluded with the sleazebags on the street to be able to steal,” said Bruce Barth, another victim. In late 2020, Mr. Barth was hospitalized with Covid-19 and his phone disappeared from his hospital room. A thief got access to his digital wallet and ran up charges on his credit card, took out cash at an A.T.M. and used Zelle to make three transfers totaling $2,500.

> All three accounts were at Bank of America, where Mr. Barth has been a customer for more than 30 years. When he filed fraud reports, the bank quickly refunded his cash and credit card losses. But it denied his claims for the Zelle thefts, saying the transactions were validated by authentication codes sent to a phone that had been previously used for that account. Bank of America was essentially saying that the Zelle transactions were authorized — even if his phone was stolen.

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