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Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#281

Post by nsonha »

fiftyfifty wrote: post #129
mgraczyk wrote: post #19

A lot of comments here are criticizing Apple for chasing cheap labor. Ignoring for a second the fact that this has a lot more to do with geopolitics and hedging geopolitical risk, I think it's important to think more carefully about the impact of companies investing in developing economies. By and large, the factory work done by people in developing economies is dramatically better in terms of quality of life and saf…

I think many of us would be more supportive of outsourcing manufacturing to developing countries if their government aligned more with Western ideals. The fact is many countries, like Vietnam, are still "developing" because they have authoritarian governments that have been oppressing their population to some extent keeping their labor cheap while stunting their economic potential. We see the problems with this situa…

> authoritarian governments that have been oppressing their population to some extent keeping their labor cheap

to think labor being cheap is the work of the communist party is pretty ridiculous. Authoritarian or not, no government benefits from their citizens being poor (capitalism does). The problem with authoritarian governments is that they are incapable of raising income, not that they do that by intent.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#282

Post by dirtyid »

WitCanStain wrote: post #260
dirtyid wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

West Germany was marshal planned by US at height of economic primacy and was previously developed which made recovery to prior levels possible. SK and TW were both bloody authoritarian govs sponsored by US (for coldwar containment) who had industrial policies, again supported by US at height of economic primacy. As far as I'm aware, there are zero countries that has ever successfully developed without initial phase o…

What about Finland? Very poor in the 1800s, rapidly industrialised and became wealthy in the 20th century. They did have a civil war but I'm not quite sure that counts as oppression by itself.

My understanding of Finnish history is rough but from what I understand Finland was also industrialized in late 1800s as Russian Dutchy under Alexander II's reforms. IIRC reward for being loyal unlike uprising in crimea and poland. It got the benefits of empire. Granted much slower than rest of Europe due to geography. Civil war over russification not unlike purges in SKorean or Taiwan/ROC, at the end of the day you need get the population in line under a national identity either through ideology or coercsion so they can focus on development instead of be distracted by sectarian drama.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#283

Post by [deleted] »

krrrh wrote: post #63
CameronNemo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.

It's hard for me to understand how someone can hold this view, and it's hard to know where to start, but no. As capitalism has expanded it has dramatically reduced absolute poverty. It's not even close, and the change only got more dramatic when communism collapsed as an alternative. https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Sin...

[deleted]

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#285

Post by [deleted] »

extragood wrote: post #89
CameronNemo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.

There's an interesting argument in 'Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind' [1] that capitalism is primarily responsible for the Enlightenment period in Europe. By the same token it may also be associated with some of the worst aspects of (relatively) recent history, such as colonialism and the slave trade. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23692271-sapiens

[deleted]

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#286

Post by koheripbal »

nine_k wrote: post #264
koheripbal wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be helpful to characterize them as "democratic" ideals - not "western" ideals. There is nothing intrinsically "western" about human rights. In fact, calling them "western" ideas is exactly how autocracies belittle them to their people.

> There is nothing intrinsically "western" about human rights. It would be interesting if you could give an example of similar ideas from seriously non-Western cultures. Say, Asia has plenty of cultures, a number of them with highly developed, original schools of philosophy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "similar ideas" to human rights, but with regard to democracies in Asia: Japan, South Korea, Thailand, Philippines, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Mongolia, Taiwan, East Timor, Micronesia

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#287

Post by koheripbal »

fiftyfifty wrote: post #212
koheripbal wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be helpful to characterize them as "democratic" ideals - not "western" ideals. There is nothing intrinsically "western" about human rights. In fact, calling them "western" ideas is exactly how autocracies belittle them to their people.

I agree, the term "Western Ideals" doesn't quite fit but it does go beyond democratic ideals which is why I didn't use that term. There are other aspects like a free market economy that extend way beyond a democratically elected government. I'm certainly open to a new term to describe it.

Free Market Economics is even LESS tied to the west in modern times than democracy.

There are very very few countries that haven't dropped centralized gov't controlled economies - even in Asia.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#288

Post by nsonha »

koheripbal wrote: post #186
fiftyfifty wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think many of us would be more supportive of outsourcing manufacturing to developing countries if their government aligned more with Western ideals. The fact is many countries, like Vietnam, are still "developing" because they have authoritarian governments that have been oppressing their population to some extent keeping their labor cheap while stunting their economic potential. We see the problems with this situa…

It would be helpful to characterize them as "democratic" ideals - not "western" ideals. There is nothing intrinsically "western" about human rights. In fact, calling them "western" ideas is exactly how autocracies belittle them to their people.

you are right, "western ideas" would be all theory, all talk and very little regard to practicality, such as Marxism, the Domino theory, Pax America, pretend democracy in South Korea, "human right" concerns that's comes from your mouth, instead of the actual humans you're trying to save.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#289

Post by koheripbal »

erichocean wrote: post #191
Aunche wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to decrease inequality, it would make sense for people to be compensated for reducing inequality. This is what exactly what outsourcing is.

Outsourcing has dramatically increased inequality in the United States. Try again.

Inequality just means the rich got richer faster than the poor got richer.

The poor's increase in wealth still outpaced inflation.

...and given that the poorest in poor countries had their wealth skyrocket out of poverty, outsourcing has absolutely been a win-win.

Re: Vietnam to make Apple Watch and MacBook

#290

Post by koheripbal »

triactual wrote: post #253
qsort wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is literally ahistorical. The overwhelming majority of consequential protests/rebellions/revolutions were heavily endorsed by the literati class. Why do you think freedom of speech and expanding education are classically liberal claims? You can see it right now in Putin's Russia. Opposition to the regime, to the extent that it exists, does not come from the proles.

No, you are exactly backwards. Did the People’s Revolution win or did the students win? I seem to remember that the students were run over by tanks. Probably not being driven by highly educated PLA commanders.

You just destroyed the argument you were trying to make.

The protesters were the well educated students. This will always be the tip of the spear for change.

Revolutions that try to leverage the uneducated masses are the most bloody and destructive - and they usually lead to dictatorships, not democracies.

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