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Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

economist.com

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Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#311

Post by supertrope »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #131
holistio wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody really has rewards. We don't have them in Europe, and some people in the USA think they have them. What they have is crazy high credit card fees and the need to juggle a bunch around to get a few things credit card companies decided to buy for you en masse. When I buy a $5 latte, I give Visa $0.01. When you do the same, you pay $0.15. Come the hell on. "REWARDS". Smh.

The Amazon/Chase credit card gets you a 5% Amazon credit for everything you spend at Whole Foods. That pretty much destroys their profit margin on a lot of what they sell. Given that I do all my grocery shopping there (for now), and I spend a lot on food, that's $840/year plus or minus. My regular Chase card gives me 1.5% of everything I spend back as cash. That's typically about $1k/year. I pay nothing in (direct) c…

Store co-branded credit cards encourage you to spend more at that store.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#312

Post by crote »

aidenn0 wrote: post #70
Areibman wrote: post #37

Does anyone sincerely believe FedNow will gain traction for consumer payments? The fees don’t seem particularly cheap (at least compared to something like Solana Pay), and the FedNow website does not inspire confidence.

If checking accounts get debit-only RTNs for cheap/free, this could potentially catch on. $0.06 per transaction with $25/month subscription fee is incredibly cheap, plus no chargebacks! Biggest issue I see is that the larger banks might not offer this to their customers so as to not cannibalize their credit card businesses and/or in-house payment system.

Over in Europe I pay €2.20 / month for my account. Transactions are completely free for private individuals. A business account is closer to €8 / month, with a transaction fee in the range of €0.10-€0.15. Discounts apply if you have a large transaction volume and integrate with their systems, of course.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#313

Post by scarface74 »

holistio wrote: post #97
arcticbull wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fees are 3% only in the US and the bulk of that is returned to buyers as cash back or loyalty points, and to offset the cost of loan origination and warranties. The EU has capped debit interchange at .2% and credit at .3%, Australia in the low 1s if I recall correctly. They just don’t really have rewards.

Nobody really has rewards. We don't have them in Europe, and some people in the USA think they have them. What they have is crazy high credit card fees and the need to juggle a bunch around to get a few things credit card companies decided to buy for you en masse. When I buy a $5 latte, I give Visa $0.01. When you do the same, you pay $0.15. Come the hell on. "REWARDS". Smh.

Well, my wife and I are kind of the degenerate case of getting credit card rewards since we are “digital nomads” traveling across the US, staying in mid tier Hilton hotels, using Uber, and flying everywhere. This means that 100% of our personal spending[1] goes on credit cards unlike most people who have car notes and mortgages/rent that they can’t put on credit cards.

Just on credit cards we get:

- 7-10% back on flights (Amex Platinum and transferring points to airlines)

- 10%-14% back on hotels (Amex Hilton Aspire)

- 5% - 8% back on dining and groceries. (Amex Gold)

- 4 - 8% back on Uber (Amex Green)

- 2-4% back on everything else (any of the above cards).

This doesn’t count hotel and airline loyalty points.

Yes, I’m taking into account annual fees. But all of the cards above have enough perks that they more than make up for annual fees - Uber credits, Clear credits, credits for hotels and airfares etc.

I’ve estimated that’s about 6.5% back a year on our budget. That’s more than we were paying in state taxes before we changed our official residence to a tax free state.

I also work in consulting, while I only travel 5-6x per year for work, many of my coworkers spend 40 weeks a year traveling a rack up credit card rewards by putting expenses on their personal cards and getting reimbursed. But they keep the rewards.

There is also an entire culture of “churning” credit cards for their sign up bonuses.

But I agree, for most people it isn’t worth it.

[1] we do have investment property that we have to pay the mortgage and a few bills on.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#314

Post by dataflow »

kccqzy wrote: post #302
lotsofpulp wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone. This is available to most people in the US via Zelle. I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. https://www.zellepay.com/get-started Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all, but for now the functionality is there for those who can get a bank…

Zelle is not always instant. There are two ways for a Zelle transaction to clear. The fast one goes through the Visa network, the same network for credit cards and debit cards. The slow ones goes through ACH, which takes several days. It is generally not possible for two recipients to know which network Zelle will use beforehand. ADDENDUM: The official marketing page for Zelle at https://www.zellepay.com/faq/how-long…

What does it depend on? And how do you figure out which one it used afterward, if not beforehand?

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#315

Post by [deleted] »

acchow wrote: post #260
lotsofpulp wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone. This is available to most people in the US via Zelle. I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. https://www.zellepay.com/get-started Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all, but for now the functionality is there for those who can get a bank…

> I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. Zelle launched in June 2017

[deleted]

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#316

Post by veeti »

moffkalast wrote: post #251
atombender wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...In the US. Outside the US, credit cards are much less common outside the US. The alternative to credit cards isn't CoD, it's debit cards, which are connected directly to a bank account. Merchants love debit cards because they have near-zero transaction fees. You don't need credit card for chargebacks, just strong consumer protection laws that permit the bank to claw the money back from the merchant. As for fraud,…

The thing about debit cards though, it's a different system and they don't work for online payments which makes them effectively useless. > People seem more wary of accruing debt in Europe; it's easy to lose control over your personal finances with a credit card. Well using credit means you're taking a loan, and subsequently paying interest on that loan even if it's just a month. Why would you pay interest on a loan…

European debit cards such as Visa Debit or former Electron are practically no different from a credit card in making online payments. They work just fine.

There are also credit + debit combination cards, which have two different numbers to use. They also let you choose which side to use on the payment terminal.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#317

Post by junofan »

snazz wrote: post #198
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not negate the parent post at all. You're just describing another deficiency of the US banking system.

Out of curiosity, how do European banks avoid this issue? If my debit card or ACH info is compromised and someone drains my checking account, is there a way to use the stolen funds before the bank/court finishes their investigation?

There’s a lot more approval-related stuff and general friction.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#318

Post by lotsofpulp »

kccqzy wrote: post #302
lotsofpulp wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone. This is available to most people in the US via Zelle. I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. https://www.zellepay.com/get-started Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all, but for now the functionality is there for those who can get a bank…

Zelle is not always instant. There are two ways for a Zelle transaction to clear. The fast one goes through the Visa network, the same network for credit cards and debit cards. The slow ones goes through ACH, which takes several days. It is generally not possible for two recipients to know which network Zelle will use beforehand. ADDENDUM: The official marketing page for Zelle at https://www.zellepay.com/faq/how-long…

Interesting, I did not know that! It’s always worked instantly for me, even got a few thousand dollar transfers.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#319

Post by lomoeffect »

moffkalast wrote: post #251
atombender wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...In the US. Outside the US, credit cards are much less common outside the US. The alternative to credit cards isn't CoD, it's debit cards, which are connected directly to a bank account. Merchants love debit cards because they have near-zero transaction fees. You don't need credit card for chargebacks, just strong consumer protection laws that permit the bank to claw the money back from the merchant. As for fraud,…

The thing about debit cards though, it's a different system and they don't work for online payments which makes them effectively useless. > People seem more wary of accruing debt in Europe; it's easy to lose control over your personal finances with a credit card. Well using credit means you're taking a loan, and subsequently paying interest on that loan even if it's just a month. Why would you pay interest on a loan…

>The thing about debit cards though, it's a different system and they don't work for online payments which makes them effectively useless.

Everything in your opening sentence is incorrect.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#320

Post by Zircom »

makeitdouble wrote: post #182
Zircom wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PayPal is a joke when it comes to addressing fraud, it's completely hit or miss on both sides. My younger brother got scammed out of like $100 trying to order a chair from a furniture website that turned out to be some guy in China scamming people. The "online store" only accepts Paypal and when checking out, instead of the usual PayPal process is directs you to a page that's already completely filled out to send the…

TBF, is there any way to do fraud protection on personal transfers ? Imagine you sent 100 bucks to your cousin and 10 min later requested your bank to get your money back because you sent it to the wrong cousin. I hate to say this, but there will always be loopholes as long as scamming js lucrative enough.

>TBF, is there any way to do fraud protection on personal transfers ? Imagine you sent 100 bucks to your cousin and 10 min later requested your bank to get your money back because you sent it to the wrong cousin.

When it's easily verifiable that actual fraud has taken place I would say yes. It would've taken them literally 5 minutes of their time to investigate by going to the website, seeing it presents itself as a retail furniture store, and to go through the checkout process and seeing that it ends up at a form for a personal transfer, and that no goods ever end up being delivered, all of which clearly indicate the transaction is 100% intended to be fraudulent by the supposed seller.

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