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Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

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Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#221

Post by maccard »

julienb_sea wrote: post #136
cycomanic wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As your post illustrates credit cards are really a solution developped for the deficiencies in the US banking system which have been exported to the rest of the world due to the dominance of the US market. 20 years when I was still living in Germany, hardly anyone had a credit card, while everyone was using automatic payments and electronic wiretransfers. I was very surprised when later (about 13 years ago) a US frie…

The benefit of credit cards is no one can literally drain your bank account via fraudulent access to a payment card directly tied to your bank (i.e. debit card in US nomenclature). This is a clear benefit regardless of location. Courts are slow and not scalable, and you don't want to be in a scenario where your bank has been drained right before you need to make important payments.

You don't need to go to court to reclaim a fraudulent debit. For one, there's limits in place on card transactions and bank transfers with every bank. In every (read: two) situation I've had where my card was skimmed/used without permission, the bank cancelled my card and refunded the amount within 24 hours.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#222

Post by odrekf »

tossl568 wrote: post #201
odrekf wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your only arguments are denials and ad hominems. Got it.

Still waiting on that evidence that Bitcoin hasn't had 100% uptime since the fork and that one node took down the entire Lightning network. Come up with some evidence that BCH is being used anywhere while you're at it.

Why does it have to be since the fork? Do you just arbitrarily remove the part of its history that make your coin look like a complete scam? People had to wait days for their transactions, many ended up falling off of the mempool, effectively becoming reversed transactions. The fees were absolutely unpredictable, people had to pay $100-$200 just to move their coins.

And after the fork BTC still makes you overpay ridiculous fees and the network is almost always extremely slow (except when no one is using it of course). Paying more than the 1c it was designed for is basically the norm now. That's why people like you try to gaslight everyone else into believing in the mythical LN that solves everything (allegedly, but not really).

Here's the proof:

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees...

See how it never even gets close to 0 even after the fork? Now compare with BCH.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#223

Post by parineum »

mcv wrote: post #204
julienb_sea wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit of credit cards is no one can literally drain your bank account via fraudulent access to a payment card directly tied to your bank (i.e. debit card in US nomenclature). This is a clear benefit regardless of location. Courts are slow and not scalable, and you don't want to be in a scenario where your bank has been drained right before you need to make important payments.

No one can drain ky bank account through my payment card either. For one, they lack the authorisation to do so, and for another, there's a limit (which I can change) to how much can be transferred per day.

> For one, they lack the authorisation to do so

I suppose someone should tell the criminals.

> there's a limit (which I can change) to how much can be transferred per day.

I expect many banks/cards have this ability as well. People just don't use it.

Hell, I have a virtual card I frequently use on websites that has a $50 limit per day. I'm sure most other companies have something similar available.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#224

Post by ars »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #165
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, absolutely. It is totally embarrassing to watch my UK family or EU friends interact with their banking systems and compare it with the US. To be fair, things are improving a little bit. But we're still so very far behind the EU banking system. Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone.

> Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone. This is available to most people in the US via Zelle. I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. https://www.zellepay.com/get-started Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all, but for now the functionality is there for those who can get a bank…

> Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all

They are working on it: FedNow https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about....

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#225

Post by mcv »

snazz wrote: post #198
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not negate the parent post at all. You're just describing another deficiency of the US banking system.

Out of curiosity, how do European banks avoid this issue? If my debit card or ACH info is compromised and someone drains my checking account, is there a way to use the stolen funds before the bank/court finishes their investigation?

How would they drain your bank account? There's quite a bit of 2FA they'd have to defeat. Easiest is stealing the card after skimming their PIN, but if you know it's stolen, you're going to block it pretty quickly, and there are limits to how much you can withdraw from an ATM.

The big problem with credit cards is that all the info needed to authorize a transaction is right there on the card. The second problem is that quite often you submit that data directly to the merchant or to whichever payment provider the merchant chose.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#226

Post by maccard »

Jensson wrote: post #171
julienb_sea wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit of credit cards is no one can literally drain your bank account via fraudulent access to a payment card directly tied to your bank (i.e. debit card in US nomenclature). This is a clear benefit regardless of location. Courts are slow and not scalable, and you don't want to be in a scenario where your bank has been drained right before you need to make important payments.

3% of your credit card spend is a steep cost to pay for that security though, they can't clean out all your money if you don't tie all of it to the debit card, just put a months worth there at a time and you are better off with debit unless you get your debit card stolen every year or so. It isn't more work than credit either, instead of paying it off every month you fill it up every month. And for fraud protection,…

In the EU credit cards can't be charged more than other payment methods anymore, so _youre_ not paying 3% more.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#227

Post by PaulsWallet »

einpoklum wrote: post #158
philip1209 wrote: post #49

Fraud protection of credit cards is the root of modern e-commerce. In some ways, Visa and Mastercard are the privatized court systems of the internet. If I end up on a random, self-hosted ecommerce site and decide to make a purchase - what guarantee do I have that the item will show up or be as-described? If I bought something through a bank transfer, reversing that purchase would be incredibly difficult. And, suing…

> Also, modern B2C SaaS is built on credit card subscriptions. That seems like circular logic. If there were alternatives to credit card and CC companies, SaaS would use that. In fact, in some countries, there are and it does. > The ability for a merchant to pull payments on a recurring basis from a credit card requires an incredible amount of trust. Why? If the merchant can't pull this month's payment, then services…

> In fact, in some countries, there are

Such as?

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#228

Post by bergenty »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #150
cycomanic wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As your post illustrates credit cards are really a solution developped for the deficiencies in the US banking system which have been exported to the rest of the world due to the dominance of the US market. 20 years when I was still living in Germany, hardly anyone had a credit card, while everyone was using automatic payments and electronic wiretransfers. I was very surprised when later (about 13 years ago) a US frie…

This, absolutely. It is totally embarrassing to watch my UK family or EU friends interact with their banking systems and compare it with the US. To be fair, things are improving a little bit. But we're still so very far behind the EU banking system. Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone.

And the EU system is way behind India’s UPI. That system really is a dream. It turned India into the world’s largest real time payment market and basically is Google’s model for FedNow they’re pitching to the federal government. It’s also what the EU is trying to emulate.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#229

Post by happyopossum »

dhosek wrote: post #28
toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow > FedNow is an instant payment service for both individuals and businesses. Once launched, the initial transaction limit will be $25,000. This means that FedNow be more useful for small businesses and retail payment needs until it is widely adopted and the transaction limit grows. > In early 2022, the Federal Reserve released pricing and fee details for their real-t…

>Merchants can pass the CC surcharge through Unless things have changed in the last 20ish years, if you accept credit cards you’re not allowed to charge different prices for CC vs non-CC payments (although there are apparently some carve-outs for gas stations).

> Unless things have changed in the last 20ish years

They absolutely have.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#230

Post by moffkalast »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #150
cycomanic wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As your post illustrates credit cards are really a solution developped for the deficiencies in the US banking system which have been exported to the rest of the world due to the dominance of the US market. 20 years when I was still living in Germany, hardly anyone had a credit card, while everyone was using automatic payments and electronic wiretransfers. I was very surprised when later (about 13 years ago) a US frie…

This, absolutely. It is totally embarrassing to watch my UK family or EU friends interact with their banking systems and compare it with the US. To be fair, things are improving a little bit. But we're still so very far behind the EU banking system. Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone.

> Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone.

If you're referring to SEPA transfers, then frankly that's a joke. There are 40 cent fees for every transfer and it usually takes hours if not a full day to process as the bank closes the system at like 4PM for some gdamn reason and all further entries have to wait until tomorrow. Like are they processing this shit by hand by actual workers or something?

Maybe my bank just sucks.

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