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Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

economist.com

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Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#211

Post by misterprime »

skimo8 wrote: post #177
nixass wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I use credit card at all? Sure it does help when traveling but not much use for it otherwise

I use it for cash back. It helps to significantly offset sales tax for me. Yes, the money is always coming from somewhere and arguably products might be cheaper without credit cards. However, it’s the game we’re in, so why leave money on the table?

cash back *rewards.

Please don't use your credit cards for cash advances unless you REALLY know what you're doing and why.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#212

Post by [deleted] »

odrekf wrote: post #153
tossl568 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's Bitcoin by every metric you can name: users, trust, fees, hashrate, price, market cap, security, exchange support, merchant acceptance, codebase quality, developer talent. Regardless of your subjective opinion of whether it's the same as it's own whitepaper based on whatever nonsense you've read from Roger Ver or whoever. BCH still has transaction mallebility because it was born out of greed of miners who did't…

Can you show me where in the whitepaper it mentions your metrics? I didn't see anything about say, price in there. I did see a lot of mentions about it being cash though (also cheap to use, beat credit cards, no intermediaries, etc). Also SPV wallets (point 8). Nothing about LN. In any case, BCH simply works 100% of the time, it's instant, extremely reliable and cheap to use, and it's actually being used as cash in t…

[deleted]

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#213

Post by hypertele-Xii »

Jensson wrote: post #171
julienb_sea wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit of credit cards is no one can literally drain your bank account via fraudulent access to a payment card directly tied to your bank (i.e. debit card in US nomenclature). This is a clear benefit regardless of location. Courts are slow and not scalable, and you don't want to be in a scenario where your bank has been drained right before you need to make important payments.

3% of your credit card spend is a steep cost to pay for that security though, they can't clean out all your money if you don't tie all of it to the debit card, just put a months worth there at a time and you are better off with debit unless you get your debit card stolen every year or so. It isn't more work than credit either, instead of paying it off every month you fill it up every month. And for fraud protection,…

I'd also have it empty before filling, so it never accumulates.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#214

Post by philip1209 »

mchusma wrote: post #203
philip1209 wrote: post #49

Fraud protection of credit cards is the root of modern e-commerce. In some ways, Visa and Mastercard are the privatized court systems of the internet. If I end up on a random, self-hosted ecommerce site and decide to make a purchase - what guarantee do I have that the item will show up or be as-described? If I bought something through a bank transfer, reversing that purchase would be incredibly difficult. And, suing…

I am an online merchant. The visa Mastercard fees are enormously high, so not. We are not "happy to pay it". The 3% is not to cover any consumer protection, that cost is born by the merchants. When a dispute is made by a customer, the merchant is assessed a fee, and almost always loses the dispute. The fees are so high that credit card companies give extremely high rewards back, which is in effect a regressive tax. I…

Would you mind sharing your approximate gross profit margin? And, can you share info about your marketing spend as a percent of gross sales?

I ask because most lower-margin businesses tend to be brick-and-mortar and service-based, like a restaurant. If a typical restaurant's profit margin is ~3-5%, then going from 3% credit card fees to 0.1% fees could conceivably increase their profits by 60-100%. So, if your margins are For ads: Many ecommerce businesses spend far more than 3% of their gross revenue on acquisition/marketing costs. So, in some ways the 3% credit card fee is closer to a marketing expense that increases conversion rates - and payment network fees are often less than overall facebook/google ad spend. So, if you're spending >3% of your gross revenue on ads, then the high conversion rates of credit cards factor into your advertising acquisition costs.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#215

Post by happyopossum »

cycomanic wrote: post #103
philip1209 wrote: post #49

Fraud protection of credit cards is the root of modern e-commerce. In some ways, Visa and Mastercard are the privatized court systems of the internet. If I end up on a random, self-hosted ecommerce site and decide to make a purchase - what guarantee do I have that the item will show up or be as-described? If I bought something through a bank transfer, reversing that purchase would be incredibly difficult. And, suing…

As your post illustrates credit cards are really a solution developped for the deficiencies in the US banking system which have been exported to the rest of the world due to the dominance of the US market. 20 years when I was still living in Germany, hardly anyone had a credit card, while everyone was using automatic payments and electronic wiretransfers. I was very surprised when later (about 13 years ago) a US frie…

> I was very surprised when later (about 13 years ago) a US friend told me that they were still using cheques for most things.

I was married with kids 13 years ago and I never touch checks - that’s not a wide spread US thing, it’s a generational thing. Anyone who used checks for ‘everything’ 13 years ago was a massive outlier.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#216

Post by Jensson »

snazz wrote: post #198
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not negate the parent post at all. You're just describing another deficiency of the US banking system.

Out of curiosity, how do European banks avoid this issue? If my debit card or ACH info is compromised and someone drains my checking account, is there a way to use the stolen funds before the bank/court finishes their investigation?

The law says that the bank needs to give back your money immediately, at least in my country. If it turns out that it was your fault you don't get to keep the money, but you will have money to pay bills with during the investigation.

Laws and security adapts to whatever medium people tend to use, so common problems tend to have solutions. The laws in Europe are made to make debit card transactions and security reasonable, because almost everyone uses debit cards.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#217

Post by humanwhosits »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #165
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, absolutely. It is totally embarrassing to watch my UK family or EU friends interact with their banking systems and compare it with the US. To be fair, things are improving a little bit. But we're still so very far behind the EU banking system. Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone.

> Instant, cost-free transfers between any two accounts, completed faster than you can lift your finger off your smartphone. This is available to most people in the US via Zelle. I have been using it for nearly 10 years I think. https://www.zellepay.com/get-started Ideally, the federal government would have already made it a utility available to all, but for now the functionality is there for those who can get a bank…

I don't want some third party doing the bank transfer, just lets the banks 1:1

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#218

Post by remote_phone »

cycomanic wrote: post #103
philip1209 wrote: post #49

Fraud protection of credit cards is the root of modern e-commerce. In some ways, Visa and Mastercard are the privatized court systems of the internet. If I end up on a random, self-hosted ecommerce site and decide to make a purchase - what guarantee do I have that the item will show up or be as-described? If I bought something through a bank transfer, reversing that purchase would be incredibly difficult. And, suing…

As your post illustrates credit cards are really a solution developped for the deficiencies in the US banking system which have been exported to the rest of the world due to the dominance of the US market. 20 years when I was still living in Germany, hardly anyone had a credit card, while everyone was using automatic payments and electronic wiretransfers. I was very surprised when later (about 13 years ago) a US frie…

This has little to do with the banking system and everything to do with counter party risk. As a consumer you don’t know if you are getting ripped off. Having the weight of a credit card company on your side makes it much easier to buy something knowing you have fraud protection.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#219

Post by bckygldstn »

snazz wrote: post #198
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not negate the parent post at all. You're just describing another deficiency of the US banking system.

Out of curiosity, how do European banks avoid this issue? If my debit card or ACH info is compromised and someone drains my checking account, is there a way to use the stolen funds before the bank/court finishes their investigation?

Giving someone your bank account number (~EU ACH info) only allows them to send you money, not take it from you. It's not a secret, some retail businesses list it on their websites.

Re: Can the Visa-Mastercard duopoly be broken?

#220

Post by happyopossum »

mcv wrote: post #204
julienb_sea wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit of credit cards is no one can literally drain your bank account via fraudulent access to a payment card directly tied to your bank (i.e. debit card in US nomenclature). This is a clear benefit regardless of location. Courts are slow and not scalable, and you don't want to be in a scenario where your bank has been drained right before you need to make important payments.

No one can drain ky bank account through my payment card either. For one, they lack the authorisation to do so, and for another, there's a limit (which I can change) to how much can be transferred per day.

> they lack the authorisation to do so

How does the German banking system prevent an unscrupulous online retailer from charging you 500€ for a 50€ item? Or charging you twice?

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