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Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

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Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#141

Post by Mirioron »

AlexandrB wrote: post #83
honkdaddy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's difficult for someone to have much perspective on how much their own lifestyle is subsidized when the same can be said for the vast majority of people who enjoy benefits from the government, regardless of where they choose to live. Most people take more than they contribute, I don't think someone making $120,000 and paying $40,000 in taxes should feel any guilt for living in the suburbs when so many othe…

The person making $120,000 is heavily benefiting from a public infrastructure that makes $120k/yr jobs possible. A ditch digger needs almost no infrastructure besides a shovel to do his job. An engineer needs schools and universities to educate his colleagues, roads and railways to deliver parts required for the product he's working on, and police services that deter theft of those products once they're built. Not to…

And the ditch digger requires the engineer to tell him where to dig. Digging a hole for no reason isn't very beneficial.

Even if you take away this public infrastructure you would get private infrastructure in its stead.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#142

Post by Ekaros »

ghaff wrote: post #46
TrispusAttucks wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this an infinite regress? How could cities survive without farm land? How could cities survive without outsourced materials? We live in an interdependent interconnected global society where everything and everyone subsidizes everyone else.

There seems to be a naive belief that if everyone just lived in dense urban cores there would be no need to pay for infrastructure beyond the city limits.

Question really is the mechanism of pay. Maybe those costs on outside should be included in price of products and materials they buy. So for food the cost that goes to farmers and via them to local taxes should increase. As that would reflect what it really costs to produce for example food.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#143

Post by foobarian »

dionidium wrote: post #133
foobarian wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but to go so far as to say, "no, we're actually not even part of the city, despite all commonsense physical reality; we're actually just a whole separate thing over here" This was done pretty much the entire history of civilization. Communist revolutions tried to ignore the human nature that leads to it and we all know how that turned out.

My argument is for stronger private property rights, the elimination of state-enforced zoning, fewer regulations, and the right to build whatever kind of housing you want on property you own, which can be characterized as "communist" to the extent that words have no meaning. Your position is that the state should use central planning to determine which kinds of economic activity are allowed on which parcels and then…

There are plenty of suburbs* formed thanks to strong property rights where individuals came together and set up zoning rules of their own. Take this far enough and you end up way on the other side, with the state forbidding any zoning rules at all.

* Note that the way we are using this word is pretty vague and may be contributing extra crosstalk

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#144

Post by foobarian »

Mirioron wrote: post #141
AlexandrB wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person making $120,000 is heavily benefiting from a public infrastructure that makes $120k/yr jobs possible. A ditch digger needs almost no infrastructure besides a shovel to do his job. An engineer needs schools and universities to educate his colleagues, roads and railways to deliver parts required for the product he's working on, and police services that deter theft of those products once they're built. Not to…

And the ditch digger requires the engineer to tell him where to dig. Digging a hole for no reason isn't very beneficial. Even if you take away this public infrastructure you would get private infrastructure in its stead.

There is no more ditch digger of old. They now use $1M excavators that are probably leased from a mega-corp that purchased it from another mega-corp.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#145

Post by Ekaros »

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #97
foobarian wrote: post #17

I am biased because I quite like living in the suburbs, and get quite suspicious when some manifesto comes up that dictates I should feel bad for it. Why is the solution to live in better designed cities instead of better designed suburbs? Are cities still necessary given the modern conditions?

IMO, the solution to voluntarily increasing density are larger apartments and strictly-enforced soundproofing requirements in the building code.

Also 7-12 storey building isn't really that high. Even if I see building denser it seems still to be very low for what should be pretty dense area.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#146

Post by theshrike79 »

PakG1 wrote: post #114
foobarian wrote: post #17

I am biased because I quite like living in the suburbs, and get quite suspicious when some manifesto comes up that dictates I should feel bad for it. Why is the solution to live in better designed cities instead of better designed suburbs? Are cities still necessary given the modern conditions?

OK, now this makes me feel weird. I just realized that I must have no idea what a suburb is. I've only lived in Canadian cities, and I've spent extensive time living in Shenzhen and was stuck in Busan for almost a year due to COVID. I am now realizing that I must have never seen a suburb before because everything I imagined as a suburb must actually qualify as a city. What am I missing here, or is the US really just…

"Suburb" is usually the bit of America where every house is made from the same McMansion catalog, all roads are paved and there's not a shop, store or office in sight.

Everyone leaves at the same time like clockwork to go to work with their immense SUV, alone of course, driving through a congested interstate to the nearest city to their office. Then the spouse leaves on their SUV to take the kids to school, queueing to drop them off.

If someone sees anyone walking in the evening or at night, they call the cops and the walker is arrested first, then investigated later. The unlucky ones get shot.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#147

Post by theshrike79 »

LatteLazy wrote: post #5

The US system means you can live outside cities (and so avoid paying city taxes) and travel in to enjoy the amenities they provide. The result is a classic "failure of the commons" where contributors move out and people in need move in. The growth fallacy relies on cities already being short of cash, it is a symptom, not a disease.

As an European Suburbs feel just wrong to me.

I've lived in small towns and big cities in Europe. Every time there has been a grocery store within walking or biking distance (5-10 minutes).

Suburbs don't have that. If you need more milk, it's a good 30 minute car ride away. Walking or going by bike are completely impossible.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#148

Post by dionidium »

foobarian wrote: post #143
dionidium wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is for stronger private property rights, the elimination of state-enforced zoning, fewer regulations, and the right to build whatever kind of housing you want on property you own, which can be characterized as "communist" to the extent that words have no meaning. Your position is that the state should use central planning to determine which kinds of economic activity are allowed on which parcels and then…

There are plenty of suburbs* formed thanks to strong property rights where individuals came together and set up zoning rules of their own. Take this far enough and you end up way on the other side, with the state forbidding any zoning rules at all. * Note that the way we are using this word is pretty vague and may be contributing extra crosstalk

> Note that the way we are using this word is pretty vague and may be contributing extra crosstalk

Yeah, it's an awful term, because it refers to hundred-year-old densely-populated urbanized areas that directly abut core cities whose borders were artificially locked into place in the 19th Century, and to greenfield interstate-offramp developments, and just about everything in between.

But, just to address your "way on the other side" scenario: forbidding zoning is exactly what the state should do. You don't get to have democracy for core rights. It doesn't matter if everybody in the neighborhood votes to restrict property rights. They're not up to a vote, just like you can't vote to restrict freedom of speech. It's not subject to a vote.

The right to build housing on my own private property is very clearly, in my view, protected by the U.S. Constitution and restricting that right is plainly a taking. I don't care what Euclid says. It was wrongly decided.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#149

Post by Sharlin »

foobarian wrote: post #17

I am biased because I quite like living in the suburbs, and get quite suspicious when some manifesto comes up that dictates I should feel bad for it. Why is the solution to live in better designed cities instead of better designed suburbs? Are cities still necessary given the modern conditions?

Cities are more necessary than ever. Sustainable infrastructure is more necessary than ever. Unsustainable ways of living (ie. car-dependent suburbs) are one of the primary reasons it is so hard to effectively fight climate change.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#150

Post by falcolas »

davidn20 wrote: post #90
sfifs wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should every small sub-section of geographies "pay-out" for themselves. The whole point of higher level organizing constructs (company, conglomerate, state, country) is we take systemically better decisions - which at a nation level will involve keeping people with different preferences united under the nation's big idea by supporting the diversity of preferences. If to take an example Google insisted every devel…

The problem with that analogy is, suburbs doesn't benefit anyone besides the people living in them. So, by that logic, they should sustain themselves. Maps, Docs, and etc provide value to people outside themselves.

Suburbs provides housing. Housing on its own doesn't benefit anyone but those who live in them regardless of the density.
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