Programming breakthroughs we need • Hacker News Board

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#11

Post by julius » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

Maybe future programming systems can use an assertive pattern, where software developers only define what the software is supposed to do. And the programming systems generates a program that fulfills all assertions.

Then when the software designer finds that the software does something wrong, he can simply add assertions. Its a little like TDD but without coding.

For GUI applications it would be cool to define assertions via natural language and the programming system drawing pictures to explain what it understood.

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#12

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

julius wrote: post #11

Maybe future programming systems can use an assertive pattern, where software developers only define what the software is supposed to do. And the programming systems generates a program that fulfills all assertions. Then when the software designer finds that the software does something wrong, he can simply add assertions. Its a little like TDD but without coding. For GUI applications it would be cool to define assert…

My intuition is that making all the assertions to write correct code with decent performance and scaling is at least as complicated as writing the code.

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#13

Post by spikej » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #7

Taikonerd wrote: post #3

> Maybe you could write tests as queries that would test a whole set of possible programs, not only the current version of your program at the moment. I think that the future of programming is more sophisticated static analysis. Programmers will write statements like, "every code path that writes to the Payments database must have called validate_user()." Then, the tooling will confirm that rule with every commit. We…

Watch this (skip to 1:17:28 to see a quick demo, the rest of the video is the explanation): https://youtu.be/OyfBQmvr2Hc It’s exploiting logic programming to query for a program that satisfies some condition.

But take a step higher and you get this https://youtu.be/FvNRlE4E9QQ

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#14

Post by cholantesh » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

julius wrote: post #11

Maybe future programming systems can use an assertive pattern, where software developers only define what the software is supposed to do. And the programming systems generates a program that fulfills all assertions. Then when the software designer finds that the software does something wrong, he can simply add assertions. Its a little like TDD but without coding. For GUI applications it would be cool to define assert…

Isn't that what low-code solutions claim to offer?

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#15

Post by vsareto » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:54 PM UTC

spikej wrote: post #10

jrm4 wrote: post #9

Eh, unfortunately the one programming breakthrough the world actually needs is one that would drastically change, and perhaps harm, most of the people around here. We need more "Excels." More and better tools that let "regular" people program.

Or more realistically the rapid application development tools need to be better so we're not bogged down dealing with latest fad or resume driven development

There's not much reason to improve things. No one's out here saying "you don't get this job because you chose new technologies when they weren't needed".

Even if you can equate glue code with trash, we seem to have unlimited space or a black hole to throw that trash.

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#16

Post by Taikonerd » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:55 PM UTC

julius wrote: post #11

Maybe future programming systems can use an assertive pattern, where software developers only define what the software is supposed to do. And the programming systems generates a program that fulfills all assertions. Then when the software designer finds that the software does something wrong, he can simply add assertions. Its a little like TDD but without coding. For GUI applications it would be cool to define assert…

Like declarative programming? [0]

I agree with you: assertions in natural language would be a killer app.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarative_programming

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#17

Post by coding123 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:55 PM UTC

If an AI can now draw a rembrandt, then it's not far off that an AI can read this:

Regular users are allowed to edit their own books.

Editors are allowed to edit any books with the same account id.

The public can read about any book that is not in draft status.

I need a domain model where users can write books with the following properties: userId, accountId, title, author, status.

status is an enum supporting draft, published, no longer available

I know this seems like a completely different paradigm, but I think we were wrong about General AI needed to replace programmers - we just didn't know how "normal AI" would go without being General AI.

I can also see this extended into the front-end at least for rudimentary forms. I can imaging someone doing a transfer AI to make front-ends have a consistent and nice looking feel that can change pretty easily - perhaps to match the user making the request.

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#18

Post by jocro » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:56 PM UTC

cholantesh wrote: post #14

julius wrote: post #11

Maybe future programming systems can use an assertive pattern, where software developers only define what the software is supposed to do. And the programming systems generates a program that fulfills all assertions. Then when the software designer finds that the software does something wrong, he can simply add assertions. Its a little like TDD but without coding. For GUI applications it would be cool to define assert…

Isn't that what low-code solutions claim to offer?

This is closer to no-code, but yeah.

Main reason to make the distinction is that most systems that parade themselves as "low-code" today are IME indistinguishable to high-code development to your average joe.

Even taking this example, the level of value totally depends on the degree of abstraction you can trust the computer to perform for you. There is a tremendous amount of nuance to human language and while we've come a very long way in that field of study, it's still a hard nut to crack.

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#19

Post by PeterWhittaker » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:57 PM UTC

jrm4 wrote: post #9

Eh, unfortunately the one programming breakthrough the world actually needs is one that would drastically change, and perhaps harm, most of the people around here. We need more "Excels." More and better tools that let "regular" people program.

Excel programming errors cost business $$$ https://www.cnbc.com/amp/id/100923538

Re: Programming breakthroughs we need

#20

Post by genghisjahn » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:01 PM UTC

PeterWhittaker wrote: post #19

jrm4 wrote: post #9

Eh, unfortunately the one programming breakthrough the world actually needs is one that would drastically change, and perhaps harm, most of the people around here. We need more "Excels." More and better tools that let "regular" people program.

Excel programming errors cost business $$$ https://www.cnbc.com/amp/id/100923538

You’re right. All business should get rid of spreadsheets to save money.