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Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

indiatoday.in

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Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#641

Post by kirarpit »

tunesmith wrote: post #398

I have this impression that casteism can commonly exist in people that are otherwise progressive and non-racist, is that true? I once had a pen-pal that worked for the UN that at some point told me that she viewed the caste system as a "useful way to organize society". I was rather taken aback since that viewpoint didn't seem to comport with my other impressions of her.

I'm not surprised. Even M.K. Gandhi said the same thing about caste. That without casteism the Indian society would crumble.

Gandhi also slept with his underage niece to test whether he can control his sexual desires after adopting celibacy.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#642

Post by anoonmoose »

cortesoft wrote: post #440
anoonmoose wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tautology I suppose, but, because you can't change them. You didn't choose it and it's immutable. Not fair to discriminate against someone for something they can't control. This is, of course, personal opinion of mine.

I get why you shouldn't discriminate against things you can't change, but I am wondering why there shouldn't also be things you can't discriminate based on that you CAN change. Religion is a good example of one... people can and do change religions, but we still shouldn't discriminate based on it. There are other examples as well of things that people can change that shouldn't be discriminated based on.

I think we should be able to discriminate based on religion. I personally don't see why this one opinion- and that's all religion is, an opinion- should be handled differently than any other opinion.

If someone thinks black people are innately inferior to other races, it's culturally acceptable for me to discriminate against them, but if their god tells them that black people are innately inferior to other races, I'm not? Heavily suspect in my opinion.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#643

Post by everforward »

ZoomerCretin wrote: post #547
illuminati1911 wrote: post #328

”Recently, talking about the incident to the New Yorker, Tanuja said, "A number of e-mails got sent to my VP, to the head of HR, to our chief diversity officer, to our CEO directly, claiming that the talk was creating a hostile workplace, that people felt unsafe, that the speaker was not qualified to speak on the topic and several other allegations." She also claimed that in tech companies, including Google, discrimi…

> ”felt unsafe”, ”hostile environment” etc. woke newspeak Were these terms not in use 40 years ago? I'd think these two terms don't fall under whatever "woke newspeak" is understood to mean these days.

They likely were, but with different connotations. They're now applied to much less dramatic circumstances.

E.g. the dictionary definition of "safe" (because "unsafe" is basically "not safe") is:

> protected from or not exposed to danger or risk; not likely to be harmed or lost

I would be hard-pressed to find a reasonable way that someone giving a talk on castes would expose the listeners to danger, risk or harm other than perhaps feeling a bit uncomfortable. I don't think feeling a bit uncomfortable would qualify as a danger, risk or harm 40 years ago.

Likewise, I don't think having a civil talk about discrimination is "hostile". It's uncomfortable, sure, but I don't think that rises to the level of unfriendliness or antagonism (unless they're publicly shaming individuals or something like that).

I don't care for the term "woke newspeak" because it tends to invoke people who are mocking the underlying feelings. People are welcome to feel however they want, and I respect that. I do think it undermines their own goals however, because it reads as hyperbole to me, which leads to wondering if hyperbole is used so heavily in other statements they make. A "Boy Who Cried Wolf" situation, if you will.

What I don't care for is diluting linguistic terms in an effort to create parallels with people in much worse situations. To me, calling this "unsafe" or "hostile" detracts from the experiences of people who are genuinely unsafe or experience hostility, e.g. domestic abuse victims, or victims of discrimination.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#644

Post by saalweachter »

gautamdivgi wrote: post #464
abduhl wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is caste not a subset of national origin or race? Do Indians who discriminate on the basis of caste also discriminate against non-Indians of a lower caste, or is it solely confined to other Indians? If not directly a protected class, why would this not clearly be a disparate impact type of case?

The rough equivalence in american terms is probably someone from a well established New England family discriminating against an underprivileged southerner assuming both are white. If you’re not Indian you don’t have a caste. Discrimination against you would be covered under other forms of discrimination (national origin, religion, color, etc..).

Maybe university-pedigree in the US?

"Ivy league" isn't quite as closed as the caste system, but multi-generational matriculation is at least perceived as common, pop culture equates attending one of a select number of universities with success/intelligence/power/wealth, and 8/9 SCOTUS Justices graduated from 2 law schools. You also get a hierarchy of social standing with Ivy league at the top, community colleges and no-college at the bottom, and some arcane ordering of various public and private institutions in between which you need to be a cultural insider to parse.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#645

Post by [deleted] »

washbrain wrote: post #613
rayiner wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White people are the ones who control “mainstream culture” and decide what gets absorbed into it. That includes things pertaining to minorities. For example, “BIPOC” is a term popularized by white people to refer to a group that’s most pertinent to white people—people other than themselves. Most people who fit the label “BIPOC” don’t identify with some larger agglomeration of “people who aren’t white.” They identify…

My experience doesn't match yours, we probably roll in different circles. Agreed on Latinx vs the more pronounceable latin@/latinao.

[deleted]

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#646

Post by rayiner »

washbrain wrote: post #613
rayiner wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White people are the ones who control “mainstream culture” and decide what gets absorbed into it. That includes things pertaining to minorities. For example, “BIPOC” is a term popularized by white people to refer to a group that’s most pertinent to white people—people other than themselves. Most people who fit the label “BIPOC” don’t identify with some larger agglomeration of “people who aren’t white.” They identify…

My experience doesn't match yours, we probably roll in different circles. Agreed on Latinx vs the more pronounceable latin@/latinao.

We don’t need to rely on our subjective experience with our respective “circles.” There is extensive polling and research on this. LatinX is extremely unpopular, and way more Latinos find the term offensive than use it: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/many-latinos-say-latin.... I suspect most Latinos have never even heard of “Latin@“ or “Latinao.” Most just don’t think Spanish needs to be “fixed.”

BIPOC is similar: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/01/us/terminology-language-p... (“In a national poll conducted by Ipsos for The New York Times, more than twice as many white Democrats said they felt ‘very favorably’ toward ‘BIPOC’ as Americans who identify as any of the nonwhite racial categories it encompasses.”)

It’s important for white people not to confuse their personal experiences with individual “BIPOC” as proxies for “BIPOC” communities: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/28/us/politics/elizabeth-war.... These folks are often activists who align with white power to overcome the majority opinion within their community.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#647

Post by stjohnswarts »

codyb wrote: post #443
Mo3 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. "Caste", "Color", doesn't matter, all the same shit. If someone sees a problem there, they're unfit for a lot of other stuff.

My good friend's Indian and she loved when I described the caste system as "just racism for people who look alike". Groups gonna group... it's good to see there's some pushback on the bullshit.

As usual it breaks down to tribalism and fear of "the other". It can cause racism, religious persecution, sexism, etc.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#648

Post by ThinkingAgain »

There are nice short videos which talks about racism and tries to make people less racist. Similarly in India it would be good to develop such short videos so that people can become sensitive on this topic of caste and become a better society.

Example video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDPTVEqkGa4

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#649

Post by lxxxvi »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #615
lxxxvi wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> culturally there isn't an equivalent of caste that would make sense for a white person to act on Sure there is. People from English-speaking countries & Western Europeans vs "Eastern Europeans" and Latinos. Ignoring for a moment that using the term "Eastern Europe" is itself hugely problematic, though usually because of ignorance not racism, I have worked in one and heard of several examples where there were huge d…

I cannot really confirm that within Europe where I live at least. Using Eastern Europe isn't problematic either. It doesn't have negative connotations where I live, it simply refers to the country of origin. Southern Europe perhaps, but that isn't really meant too seriously and more referring to fiscal policies. Companies pay their workers the lowest wage they can get away with. In some regions the wage level is smal…

> I cannot really confirm that within Europe where I live at least

Brexit literally happened because of among other reasons too many "Eastern Europeans". Germans have zero qualms about using phrases like "Barely stolen, already in Poland"...

> Using Eastern Europe isn't problematic either. It doesn't have negative connotations where I live, it simply refers to the country of origin

If you can give me a concise definition of "Eastern Europe" that doesn't have a bunch of asterisks and doesn't use effectively colonial groupings (i.e. when the USSR occupied/puppeted countries usually considered EE) I'll concede this one. But I doubt that you can give me such a definition.

> Companies pay their workers the lowest wage they can get away with. In some regions the wage level is smaller so people tend to accept lower wages. Unfair of course if they live and work in the same place but also not really discrimination. They have to demand more.

I know how capitalism works. But when you see someone with 10 years of experience quit because they couldn't get beyond $x regardless of what they did and how much they asked for more get replaced with someone with 3 years of experience making 150% of x for 50% of the same job... The difference being the former was Polish and the latter an American living in Romania (i.e. with an even lower CoL than Poland)...

Does it seem incredible, considering companies should optimize for profit? Absolutely. But I've seen it happen with my own eyes and I've seen the work of both.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#650

Post by survirtual »

barrysteve wrote: post #579
survirtual wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing. I would think nothing of it, because I am not a low-classed, stone-aged, rocked-brained imbecile judging people by superficial nonsense instead of the content of their character & quality of their work. You can have all the money, power, and authority, but it doesn’t change the contents of your character. This type of judgement is indicative of low-class at a soul level — if such an impoverished soul makes j…

What does it mean to judge someone on the content of their character? It can be just as easily superficial as choosing to bring in a different kind of sandwhich to work. Taking food down to a homeless man on the side of a street and filming it, is noble and worthy of praise but has limited practical impact on your ability to judge the person accurately. He could be doing it for the wrong reasons. He could be doing it…

You think it is a good thing for people to change for their colleagues? “i see you are offended by my bologna sandwich, forgive me, I will switch to filet mignon in order to make you feel more comfortable.” Ridiculous.

A well oiled ship has not a thing to do with superficial parts. People need to lose this ego & trying to control every little thing about those around them. It is a job, not a church or a dictatorship.

Do the job, be accepting and friendly. And eat your bologna sandwich if you damn well feel like it.

Also, filming yourself doing a good deed like taking food to a homeless person is embarrassing, and completely invalidates the “good deed.” You can easily judge that person. They are exploiting an under-classed human as a tool to further their social status, which anyone with a brain can easily recognize as low-class behavior.

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