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Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

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Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#1
With Russia invading Ukraine & China preparing to invade Taiwan, I can't help but wonder.

In the 2010's, many people told me 'WWIII will never happen, the world is too interdependent'.

When I look at the world unfold in the 2020's, it seems very few people accounted for how much corruption, economics, social media, propaganda, etc. would factor into geopolitics.

At this point, to me, another global conflict with massive consequences seems inevitable. There is just enough desperation, social unrest, government corruption, and resource depletion to trigger survival instincts on the largest scale.

Just like individuals have a drive for self-preservation, nations do too. Wars happen when two or nation's drive for self-preservation collide. It seems Russia, China, and North Korea have already aligned while the US/EU have aligned, not sure where India stands. The US has warships moving in the South China Sea, China sees that as an act of escalation. Winter is coming in the EU with Russia withholding energy. TikTok is spying on the all it's users and Russia interfered in US elections...

I'm just curious to hear what others think/feel. I'm open to any perspective, none of us are prepared for what's ahead for better or for worse. I'm hoping for the best, preparing for the worst.

Re: Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#2
> With Russia invading Ukraine & China preparing to invade Taiwan, I can't help but wonder.

And before that the US invaded Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, various other countries (arguably including Vietnam and Korea). The USSR also invaded Afghanistan. Plus various other proxy conflicts.

WWIII, in the sense of an all out war, won't happen because the opponents all have nuclear weapons and are too big in any case.

The West is careful not to directly attack Russia in Ukraine. Russia will be careful not to attack any NATO countries. If mainland China at one point launches an invasion of Taiwan the same will happen: China will be careful not to attack the US and allies, and the US and allies will be careful not to attack China.

Really, the same that has been happening since 1945 between US and Russia, and since the end of the Korean War between China and US (when the US understood that China was off-limit as well).

It's just that since the fall of the USSR people in the US and the West have become used to run the show unopposed. This is no longer the case and we are 'simply' going back to a situation where several opposing major powers (really, that means the US and China) match each other (or at least are strong enough relative to each other to be assertive).

Re: Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#3

> With Russia invading Ukraine & China preparing to invade Taiwan, I can't help but wonder. And before that the US invaded Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, various other countries (arguably including Vietnam and Korea). The USSR also invaded Afghanistan. Plus various other proxy conflicts. WWIII, in the sense of an all out war, won't happen because the opponents all have nuclear weapons and are too big in any case. The Wes…

Thank you for your reply. I learned a lot here and it does give me some peace of mind.

I've deactivated social media and barely check the news but things still seep through on my phone, on reddit, here.

I'm trying to just build my happy life in Maui at the age of 32, try to become free in every sense while I have the energy and drive.

Re: Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#4
post #3

> With Russia invading Ukraine & China preparing to invade Taiwan, I can't help but wonder. And before that the US invaded Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, various other countries (arguably including Vietnam and Korea). The USSR also invaded Afghanistan. Plus various other proxy conflicts. WWIII, in the sense of an all out war, won't happen because the opponents all have nuclear weapons and are too big in any case. The Wes…

Thank you for your reply. I learned a lot here and it does give me some peace of mind. I've deactivated social media and barely check the news but things still seep through on my phone, on reddit, here. I'm trying to just build my happy life in Maui at the age of 32, try to become free in every sense while I have the energy and drive.

> I'm trying to just build my happy life in Maui at the age of 32

Sounds like a good plan. Take it easy!

Re: Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#5
I doubt it simply because there's still a massive power imbalance between western and non-western countries. A war with China and Russia would obviously be awful for the human race, but there's almost no way China and Russia would win such a war, nor would it make sense to fight it. I mean what does the "winner" of WWIII gain? You might win the war, but now the planet is a nuclear waste land.

I think China and Russia are likely to continue to make moves that economically hurt the West or amplify social divisions here, but I don't see WWIII-type conflict happening personally.

The Taiwan situation is interesting but ultimately China knows they won't be able to take Taiwan by force without extreme consequences - nor would it be easy. China's economy depends on being able to export to the West where as the West could, if needed, find other trading partners. For that reason I think there are limits in how far China will be willing to go with Taiwan. Even if it didn't escalate into direct conflict with the West it would still be economically devastating for China. Maintaining the status-quo is in everyone's best interest.

Then again geopolitical events are nearly impossible to predict. At the end of the day it's just a handful of people who get to decide these things and people can be irrational, emotional and have complex motivations. WWIII will probably happen at some point, I just doubt the probability of it happening soon is as high as some people think.

Re: Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#6
post #5

I doubt it simply because there's still a massive power imbalance between western and non-western countries. A war with China and Russia would obviously be awful for the human race, but there's almost no way China and Russia would win such a war, nor would it make sense to fight it. I mean what does the "winner" of WWIII gain? You might win the war, but now the planet is a nuclear waste land. I think China and Russia…

> but there's almost no way China and Russia would win such a war

For any sensible definitions of 'win', there's also no way the US can win against China, or even Russia. Both China and Russia are impossible to successfully invade and they both have nuclear weapons (same applies to the US).

These 3 countries do not want to go to war against each others and they won't. As the WOPR once wisely concluded, the only winning move is not to play.

So every time the US 'flex their muscles' over Ukraine or Taiwan we pretty much know that this is rhetorics and that they won't actually intervene directly.

Edit: I'm bowing in shame and have corrected WOPR (not Whopper). Thanks @jgrahamc.

Re: Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#7
The TikTok spying is probably irrelevant since most TikTok users are teenagers.

I was surprised when Putin went ahead and actually invaded Ukraine since I didn't see the cost/benefit justifying the invasion. Putin had a war chest of more than 600 billion dollars. Like half of that was on western banks and it's now frozen, so Putin can't use it. They're burning through the rest quickly as Russian economy is going to the toilet and sanctions are hitting hard. Russia started the war with an inflation of 10% and then it went to 15-17%. Basically all western corporations left Russia. Russian planes are banned to land on most western airports. Russia no longer has access to western technology and global supply chain, which means they can no longer manufacture many things, like cars etc. They're salvaging chips from microwaves and fridges, that desperate they are. Of course China can benefit from it by selling technology to Russia at exorbitant prices, and also by buying Gas and Oil cheaply, but since there's no infrastructure to sell Gas and Oil to China as there is for Europe (like NordStream), that means it takes a very long time for that Gas and Oil to reach China (like 30 days instead of 3 days). Now, Russian economy seems to be doing better than expected, the Ruble stronger than expected, but it's all for the show, in reality they can't hold that position indefinitely. Also if Russia starts opening fronts with other countries they will need to spread their army thin instead of focusing their efforts in one spot. In the months of war so far we've seen how Russian army has low morale and has been ineffective, with seemingly old weapons and tanks, and the territorial gains they won had an expensive cost in lives of russian soldiers and equipment. Theoretically Russia has air force superiority compared to Ukraine but they don't seem to use the full force of their air force. Russia also has a navy and submarines, but that is not very relevant on a land conflict like Ukraine. I thought that maybe they're using conscripted soldiers in Ukraine (cannon fodder) instead of their professional soldiers, to appear weaker, and save their pros for later if the conflict escalates with other countries... that is a possibility.

I think for now Putin will content himself with taking the Donbas and a corridor connecting with Crimea and getting access to the Black Sea, and would be very happy if they could connect that to Odesa and the Transnitria region in Moldova.

Now, Europe will suffer, with inflation now at an average of 10% and many countries relying on russian gas and oil, prices will go even higher and there might be energy shortages in winter (remember, winter is coming). But NATO is avoiding a direct conflict with Russia because that would put two nuclear superpowers on a face to face conflict. USA and Europe are providing hi-tech weapons to Ukraine instead, which has proved to be extremely effective. USA will suffer with inflation/stagflation but not as much as Europe.

Russia has some supporters. Belarus is like a puppet state, it allowed russian forces to use their territory to launch the invasion. Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Kyrgyzstan also support Russia. Other middle east countries have expressed their support for Russia, most likely because they don't like USA. Now, would any of these states get actively involved in a war to support Russia? I believe most would not, they're just cheering on the sides. India is also buying Oil and Gas from Russia, and helping Russia with their banking system to bypass sanctions, but I don't think they would get involved in a war against USA and Europe.

China is a special case. Before the Olympics Putin and Xi Jinping met, and allegedly they signed an extended collaboration treaty. China has been repeating russian propaganda and lies (that Ukraine was infested by Nazis and Russia is liberating it etc) and blocking western news about the conflict. China has also bought a lot of oil and gas from Russia. But they are playing a slow game and will play to their own interests. It's good for China that USA and Europe get weakened by the conflict, and it's good for China that Russia is depleting their money resources and get weaker every day.

China has been building a lot of infrastructure in Africa in what some people called Debt Trap Diplomacy. Providing a loan of millions of dollars to a poor African country to build infrastructure, and when they default on their loan, China takes control of the land, effectively having a military base. It is debatable if that is an ongoing strategy or if it just happened in some cases, but China has a lot of interests in Africa, which means they have probably bribed a lot of politicians which they could use in the future if needed. I still haven't figured out what role is this going to play on China Master Plan, but I'm sure there's something there.

Now, will China invade Taiwan? Well, they made a law a few years ago saying that it would be illegal for China not to use any means including violence, to "protect their territory and sovereignity" and recover control of Taiwan. They're violating Taiwan air space daily, they've done so hundreds of times, I suppose to create an opportunity of approaching to Taiwan with the guise of one of these flights when an invasion starts.

In isolation it seems simple, Taiwan army is no match to China army, but it's not so simple. Taiwan produces almost 70% of semiconductors, with TMSC producing most of it. All those fancy M1 and M2 from Apple with 5nm process? They rely on TMSC technology. It is said that in the event of a chinese invasion, Taiwan would destroy their semiconductor fabs. That would have a huge impact on the global economy and affect a lot of products, from computers and phones to cars, fridges, dishwashers... and also weapons. Biden said that the US would defend Taiwan against China at least twice, but his advisors made him backpedal that. Which probably means that it would but he can't say it out loud.

Now, China economy depends a lot on exports to western countries and western economies also depend a lot on products and parts from China. If China invaded Taiwan, it would become an international pariah just like Russia, which would cripple its economy, but it would also collapse the economies of many western countries. That doesn't mean China won't do it, just like Russia did against all odds, and there's a law saying it would be illegal for China not to take any necessary steps to take back control of Taiwan, after all.

About the comment about the US invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and Korea etc it's not that if a country invades any country that would become a world war... but Ukraine is different because it's in Europe and if they had let Putin take Ukraine without providing weapons and assistance, from Ukraine it could have tried to take other countries, like Poland, Moldova, some scandinavian countries... USA and Europe can't allow that. And also they can't allow China to take Taiwan for the reasons I mentioned about TMSC and the semiconductor industry.

So, it's not a simple answer... There will be a WWIII, most likely no, but it's not completely off the table.

Re: Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#8
post #7

The TikTok spying is probably irrelevant since most TikTok users are teenagers. I was surprised when Putin went ahead and actually invaded Ukraine since I didn't see the cost/benefit justifying the invasion. Putin had a war chest of more than 600 billion dollars. Like half of that was on western banks and it's now frozen, so Putin can't use it. They're burning through the rest quickly as Russian economy is going to t…

> They're violating Taiwan air space daily

They are not, actually, and I don't think they ever did.

> it could have tried to take other countries, like Poland, Moldova, some scandinavian countries

Of course not. Russia is not going to attack or invade NATO countries, nor is it clear why they would invade a non-NATO Scandinavian country... And in practical terms they couldn't really pulled off invading a country like Poland because they are not that strong beyond their nuclear arsenal, as Ukraine has made rather clear. There is a lot of scaremongering about Russia.

Korea was the closest to a world war and was more significant than Ukraine as the US and China actually came face to face but the US stopped it because they knew they could not invade China (which was the proposed next step) on top of not faring that well against Chinese troops in Korea.

Re: Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#9
post #7

The TikTok spying is probably irrelevant since most TikTok users are teenagers. I was surprised when Putin went ahead and actually invaded Ukraine since I didn't see the cost/benefit justifying the invasion. Putin had a war chest of more than 600 billion dollars. Like half of that was on western banks and it's now frozen, so Putin can't use it. They're burning through the rest quickly as Russian economy is going to t…

> They're violating Taiwan air space daily They are not, actually, and I don't think they ever did. > it could have tried to take other countries, like Poland, Moldova, some scandinavian countries Of course not. Russia is not going to attack or invade NATO countries, nor is it clear why they would invade a non-NATO Scandinavian country... And in practical terms they couldn't really pulled off invading a country like…

> They are not, actually, and I don't think they ever did.

Jan 2021 https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3116557/pla... "Chinese air force entered island’s ADIZ on 91 days from January to November, according to Taipei-based think tank"

April 2021 https://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=2907&h=Frequent-Viola... "Violation of Taiwanese airspace by military aircraft of the PRC appears to have become a regular feature as it has been occurring frequently. Instances of incursion by aircraft of the China into the airspace of Taiwan has increased significantly, particularly so over the last two years."

Oct 2021 https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/world/why-did-145-chinese-...

Nov 2021 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4338555

Jan 2022 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/24/china-sends-la...

Feb 2022 https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-reports-ni...

May 2022 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-61642217

Jun 2022 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/21/taiwan-sends-jets-t...

August 2022 https://www.ft.com/content/50f56242-2bd7-44c6-8878-a755ad1e3...

> they are not that strong beyond their nuclear arsenal, as Ukraine has made rather clear.

Yes, they're not as strong as they're fighting like it's WWII, but Ukraine received billions of dollars worth of hi-tech weapons and that has tipped the scales in favor of Ukraine. My point is that, if USA and Europe did not provide all that assistance and weapons to Ukraine, Russia would probably have fared way better against Ukraine even with their dated weapons and tanks and their incompetent conscripted soldiers.

Re: Ask HN: Is WWIII already in its early stages?

#10
post #5

I doubt it simply because there's still a massive power imbalance between western and non-western countries. A war with China and Russia would obviously be awful for the human race, but there's almost no way China and Russia would win such a war, nor would it make sense to fight it. I mean what does the "winner" of WWIII gain? You might win the war, but now the planet is a nuclear waste land. I think China and Russia…

> the West could, if needed, find other trading partners

Caveat: I'm not an expert, but I think this is too simplistic. If both sides completely divorced from each other, Western factories would probably struggle to manufacture a lot of things, because they rely on components from China, components you and I have probably never considered necessary.

E.g: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/russian-invasion-of-ukraine-...

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