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VPNs on iOS are a scam

michaelhorowitz.com

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Re: VPNs on iOS are a scam

#71

Post by jart »

mkingston wrote: post #51
jart wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ProtonMail article said it only applies to pre-existing connections, because iOS doesn't force them to close when an app enables its VPN. I'd be reluctant to call that a leak, unless it contradicts Apple's documented behaviors, which as far as I can tell make no mention of a systemwide VPN except for corporate "always on" ones. Besides, is there any reason why you can't just toggle airplane after enabling a consu…

That's a clever thought. Do you know whether connections could be established outside the tunnel after you disable airplane mode but before the tunnel is re-established?

If that were possible then ProtonMail would have certainly said so, since that'd garner serious attention. In any case, the functionality as a whole isn't documented, so even if it works, Apple could theoretically take it away just like that. That of course doesn't mean we shouldn't rely on it, since if the only other option is a corpnet we're left with little other choice. I have the same problem with Apple because I depend on static binaries. Under the Apple regime, they too have an uncertain future and only continue to exist at Apple's pleasure. It's discomforting but not the end of the world.

Re: VPNs on iOS are a scam

#74

Post by fzfaa »

Shank wrote: post #38
ceejayoz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t sound right. https://blog.cloudflare.com/warp-for-desktop/ > WARP was built on the philosophy that even people who don’t know what “VPN” stands for should be able to still easily get the protection a VPN offers.

> From a technical perspective, WARP is a VPN. But it is designed for a very different audience than a traditional VPN. WARP is not designed to allow you to access geo-restricted content when you’re traveling. It will not hide your IP address from the websites you visit. If you’re looking for that kind of high-security protection then a traditional VPN or a service like Tor are likely better choices for you. See: htt…

So it's a VPN but it doesn't do anything that you expect from a VPN? It doesn't let me access devices in a LAN, it doesn't hide my IP, it doesn't change my country... then what is Warp good for?

Re: VPNs on iOS are a scam

#75

Post by autoexec »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #31
mike_d wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VPNs were always meant to carry internal traffic to a private network, not the public internet (hence the name Virtual Private Network). The fact that a VPN server can send you a route for 0.0.0.0/0 always was and always will be a happy accident.

> VPNs were always meant to carry internal traffic to a private network, not the public internet This. And the idea that these so called ‘VPN’ services somehow improve your security and privacy on the internet is laughable. All they do is let you get onto the public, untrusted, internet through a different on-ramp. There is no point to them. The internet is just as untrustworthy through a VPN service as it is through…

> All they do is let you get onto the public, untrusted, internet through a different on-ramp. There is no point to them.

Not true, at all. There are several good reasons to use VPNs to get a different on-ramp to the otherwise untrusted internet.

  - Avoid ISP tracking: Your ISP should see only traffic to and from the VPN. 

  - Access content intended for those in other regions: Many sites and services only show certain content to people who enter the internet from specific places. 

  - Limit the amount of activity linked by trackers: Visiting certain sites only from different IPs/browsers will help keep logs of that traffic isolated from the logs of your other browsing.

  - Allows you to connect to sites and services that cannot connect back to you once you've disconnected: A lot of people, even those with dynamic IPs, keep their address for months or years at a time. VPNs provide a great way to cycle through IPs.
VPNs don't solve every problem, but they're a powerful tool to keep in your tookbox.

There are many many very valuable uses for VPNs some that offer privacy/security benefits and some that are just plain useful. It's wild to hear anyone say that "There is no point to them."

Re: VPNs on iOS are a scam

#76

Post by autoexec »

jolux wrote: post #65
w14 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no point to them. What about this? "Under the provisions of the Investigatory Powers (IP) Act, it is now possible for the Law Enforcement Agency (LEA) community to lawfully obtain Internet Connection Records (ICR) in support of their investigations. Following the completion of some initial trial activities, work is now underway to provision a national ICR service." https://www.digitalmarketplace.service.go…

And what makes you trust that the VPN provider wouldn’t share these records if asked?

In the end you have to trust someone or you might as well just stay offline forever. In the US, very few people have much choice in their ISP. If you are lucky you might have more than two options. Many ISPs are known to be untrustworthy. They outright state they will mine your internet history and sell it. If I have the choice between an ISP who I know will sell my browsing history and a VPN which might, but claims not to? Well, I know which one I'm going to pick.

Re: VPNs on iOS are a scam

#77

Post by autoexec »

anyfoo wrote: post #39
_8j50 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> You are wrong on this, the private part indicates the privacy it provides not the destination. I remember using VPNs long before, to my knowledge, people were using them in the way you describe, and I was always under the impression that the "P" in VPN meant "connecting private networks" together over the Internet. This document from 2001 agrees with me: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/windows/i.…

VPNs were used primarily by companies to allow secure access to their network from the outside. It doesn't surprise me that documents aimed at businesses running Windows servers would describe them in the context of that use case. It doesn't mean that was the entire point, or purpose. It's just one thing they were commonly used for.

Re: VPNs on iOS are a scam

#78

Post by genewitch »

nucleardog wrote: post #70
genewitch wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you saying that a packet leaving iOS and hitting the router's logs, without going through the "VPN" does not leak either your IP to the destination or your destination to your ISP?

I think he’s saying that any sort of network analysis done by someone that doesn’t understand basics of TCP is kinda suspect and may be more prone to errors in the analysis methodology or interpretation of results. I tend to agree. My only takeaway after seeing that was “if I ever need a 100% leak free tunnel on iOS, validate it”. I certainly won’t be taking any of this at face value without replicating it.

the local router shouldn't see any other connections inbound or outbound from the device other than the "VPN" ip you are connected to. I submit that it doesn't take an expert to come to that conclusion. Other comments in this thread explain that the iOS/MacOS kernel keep old established routing tables intact under some circumstances, and that's (one) issue. Another appears to be the unreliability or inconsistency of "airplane mode" and invalid assumptions about that.

Re: VPNs on iOS are a scam

#79

Post by permo-w »

glerk wrote: post #54

Device-level VPNs are very useful for bypassing geographic restrictions, but I wouldn’t rely on them for hiding traffic from ISPs, unless you are in control of 100% of what your device does.

how good is wireguard at controlling this?

Re: VPNs on iOS are a scam

#80

Post by autoexec »

happyopossum wrote: post #40
_8j50 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> You are wrong on this, the private part indicates the privacy it provides not the destination. Sorry - that's just not the case, you're retconning VPN terminology. VPNs were originally implemented to replace dedicated WANs and dial-in access to private networks - they were not originally designed to provide privacy for individual access to the Internet. Heck, even the RFC for VPN terminology makes that clear (RFC 2…

> Heck, even the RFC for VPN terminology makes that clear (RFC 2764 is over 20 years old).

What it actually says is:

The widespread deployment of VPNs has been hampered, however, by the lack of interoperable implementations, which, in turn, derives from the lack of general agreement on the definition and scope of VPNs and confusion over the wide variety of solutions that are all described by the term VPN.

Some people's ideas of the definition and scope of "VPN" might have involved the requirement that it terminate on a private network, but others would not.

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