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You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

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Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#151

Post by joe_the_user »

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #95

There's a lot of entitlement from "artists" who sit on a moral high horse and expect special treatment because they're "expressing a higher truth" while the rest of us normies toil in obscurity and sell our souls to corporate overlords to pay the bills. Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginner…

It saddens me that wanting enough time to develop yourself is considered a " moral high horse" implying "special treatment". Personally, I think virtually anyone should be able to get spartan survival with a part time job giving them enough time develop themselves - or work a full time job to live reasonably well. Reading Samuel Delaney's biographical sketch The Motion of Light On Water, the US seemed to offer that possibility in 1962 but today minimal rent in most places requires two jobs.

The same forces that mean those people "laying down cement in 100 degree weather" often can't actually "put a roof over their family's heads" are the forces that keep poor artists for existing in this society.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#152

Post by filoleg »

pcwalton wrote: post #122
8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #95

There's a lot of entitlement from "artists" who sit on a moral high horse and expect special treatment because they're "expressing a higher truth" while the rest of us normies toil in obscurity and sell our souls to corporate overlords to pay the bills. Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginner…

A lot of people would say the same about programmers.

Yeah, but programmers aren't trying to justify higher pay or claim they deserve some special treatment because they are "expressing themselves".

Programmers are simply paid what they get paid because businesses they work for can make up that cost (of paying programmers the salary) with profit multiple times over, using the work produced by those programmers.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#153

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

runevault wrote: post #112
texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's really local governments bankrolling the stadiums and upgrades. And then ticket and merchandise sales are mostly the fan base, not some patronage class. Maybe sponsorships are closest to patronage but those are still more of business transactions. It's all just business, and the wealthy aren't donating anything (unlike arts patronage).

The stadiums yes (and that's a rant I could go on for hours) but the salaries are based on the actual money coming into the league. And if you argue that isn't the same thing, what makes it any different from Kings funding patrons using tax money?

I draw the distinction because the fans themselves are (at least in theory) voluntarily choosing to support their hometown team, whereas the decision to apply taxes towards patronage is unilaterally made by the king. Though we could probably debate over whether the descriptor of a "hometown team" is truly honest, since it's more accurately a wealthy owner's team that happens to be located in / named after a city which benefits very little from the team's success.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#154

Post by rafaelero »

ch4s3 wrote: post #150
rafaelero wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite simple to verify your assertion. Someone should show people some pieces of art and ask them to rate the quality of each of them. If the rating between human-made art and machine-made art doesn't differ significantly, then we can comfortably say that there is nothing special on art produced by humans. I think I know what the result will be, but hopefully some researcher will carefully investigate this issue…

You’re talking about a question of taste, and I’m sure you could find a group of people and some samples where the group prefers the AI generated images. That seems almost tautological. There’s more to art than the mere appeal of an image to random people. Some great art is disturbing, but it is emotionally resonant. No doubt some of these AI images are quite neat to look at, but they’re basically assemblages, high t…

I don't think you understood what I was saying. It's not about taste, it's about being able to differentiate between human and machine made art using whatever metric people have about what constitutes good art.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#155

Post by 8bitsrule »

"I have the impression, as some others have taught me, rather than through my own intuition, that what ‘makes it’ is something that fits the most common denominator."

Very likely true. Often the most-creative artists are out on-the-edge. Escher for one example. Unless that 'edge' is riding an arriving zeitgeist (like the Beats), the artist may die before recognition ... like Schubert, like van Gogh. Such artists are often not gifted with self-promotion and negotiation skills (and struggle with finances).

Usually the people most capable of arousing interest are not endowed with vision (or great advisors, like kings and emperors). And so the trendy buuut less-than-new 'wins' by virtue of mere novelty. And we all lose.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#156

Post by trevorboaconstr »

finexplained wrote: post #137
pcwalton wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people would say the same about programmers.

Sure, but we actually provide business value and our toolset is applicable to a broad set of problems.

^And both are equally insufferable in their perceived self importance to the world.

Too bad I’m not a Roman Emperor, or else I’d host weekly public bouts where I’d pit them against one another in a fight to the death.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#157

Post by Off »

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #95

There's a lot of entitlement from "artists" who sit on a moral high horse and expect special treatment because they're "expressing a higher truth" while the rest of us normies toil in obscurity and sell our souls to corporate overlords to pay the bills. Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginner…

I think the entitled artists are generally in it for the fame and what comes with it, that's why most of them think they deserve the special treatment, humble artists actually don't care about that at all, they do it for themselves, they just want to do their thing and lose themselves to the process.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#158

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c »

filoleg wrote: post #152
pcwalton wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people would say the same about programmers.

Yeah, but programmers aren't trying to justify higher pay or claim they deserve some special treatment because they are "expressing themselves". Programmers are simply paid what they get paid because businesses they work for can make up that cost (of paying programmers the salary) with profit multiple times over, using the work produced by those programmers.

Exactly, the markets are clearing just fine with programmers being paid what they are, given the sort of leverage businesses are getting out of them. The same cannot be said for art, the supply is vastly outpacing the demand, especially in light of the power law nature of art and entertainment consumption.

But, to +1 the other poster, programmers can be just as deluded as anybody else about their own importance, we don't have to indulge that either.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#159

Post by nradov »

ch4s3 wrote: post #135
rafaelero wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the development of AI, it's been quite an experience to see artists grasping the fact that their craft is not the magical thing they think it is.

DALL·E 2 and co are pretty neat, but the output mostly sucks as art. Good art comes from somewhere, having provenance in person, place, culture, and time. Really great art can be quite moving, and I've yet to see anything AI generated that elicits more than a chuckle or a mild "huh neat" from anyone who doesn't know why it's technically impressive.

A blue canvas with a white line sold for $44M. Pretty sure an AI could generate that.

https://nypost.com/2013/05/15/43-8-million-for-this/

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#160

Post by dogman144 »

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #95

There's a lot of entitlement from "artists" who sit on a moral high horse and expect special treatment because they're "expressing a higher truth" while the rest of us normies toil in obscurity and sell our souls to corporate overlords to pay the bills. Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginner…

This is a very odd take and aggressive towards artists in a way that makes little sense.

First, You’re arguing that rational labor input-output, the harder the better, and the resulting inputs it creates into a system, is the highest ideal or something. You’re missing that Art and various abstractions, to include the social sciences have played a major role in shaping history and our self identities for all of human existence (Homer, anyone?). When this missing started occurring is right around the ‘06 tech boom that put engineering and input output above all else, and by extension destroyed out the protected spaces artists could function in. Coincidently, that’s right around the time the world started to lose its mind by finding meaning making via their iPhones. This engineering-centric dismissal of everything that can’t be quantified is the cause of so many social issues. Your view was also directly present in the Soviet Union, fwiw.

I’m not sure what artist insulted you or wherever this take comes form, but you’re really missing some key points of why Art and the resulting high minded artists have existed since the cavemen.

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