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American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

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Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#341
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't going to be applicable to 95+% of aviation, but for something like a flight between the US and Australia, e.g. LAX to SYD? Going from a 15h to 8h flight will be huge -- that's 30h to 15h round-trip. I'm American and visited Australia once, and realized I probably never would again, it's just too far. An Australian friend of mine here in the US only went home to see his family every few years. It just takes…

You don't need to go everywhere, really. Especially not halfway round the world for a vacation.

The number of reasons people want to move around the worl are almost innumerable. Just because you don’t value it doesn’t mean others can’t.

Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#342
post #298

To everyone saying this will not work because it's more expensive... jets were more expensive than turboprops. And even though the former use more fuel, we prefer them. The costs of flying an airplane isn't proportional to its fuel usage. The faster an aircraft is, the more flights it can perform per day. The carbon emissions impact of flying a gas-guzzling supersonic aircraft aren't evident either. Of course, more g…

> The costs of flying an airplane isn't proportional to its fuel usage. The faster an aircraft is, the more flights it can perform per day. It is indeed not proportional, but not in the way you are thinking. Drag (and ~fuel consumption) scales with velocity squared, so a plane flying twice at fast (and neglecting any time at the airport, which would make the argument even worse) would use four times as much fuel. I.e…

And fuel cost is typically more than double the capital cost in an airline's budget at subsonic speeds

And the proposed aircraft are less than half the size of the aircraft they'd most likely replace, so actually sell fewer tickets on double the flight numbers

Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#343
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't going to be applicable to 95+% of aviation, but for something like a flight between the US and Australia, e.g. LAX to SYD? Going from a 15h to 8h flight will be huge -- that's 30h to 15h round-trip. I'm American and visited Australia once, and realized I probably never would again, it's just too far. An Australian friend of mine here in the US only went home to see his family every few years. It just takes…

You don't need to go everywhere, really. Especially not halfway round the world for a vacation.

This reasoning can be used to also say you don’t need to go anywhere outside of your living area.

Without removing freedom of mobility, the only way we have to mitigate environmental costs is through price pressures which could be used to fund net neutral technologies.

Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#344
As someone who has actually flown on the Concorde, I can say that I'd gladly endure its tight seats again and empty my wallet in exchange for a shorter flight. Heck, if I had the option between spending $20,000 for a NY-London roundtrip on an Overture (the same price for that route on the Concorde, inflation-adjusted) versus spending $20,000 to charter a long-range private jet (likely a significant underestimate), I'd go for the Overture in most cases.

However, although I'm rooting for any company that's making a sincere (as opposed to fraudulent) attempt at bringing back supersonic travel, the hardest challenges may still be ahead for Boom. The biggest one is the need to find or build a new engine. They've recently redesigned the Overture to use four engines instead of two, which should ease required engine specs, but there's no engine that would meet the reliability, noise, fuel consumption, and dimension requirements for a supersonic passenger aircraft.

Related to the engines: money. It sounds impressive that boom raised at least $150 million, including $60 million from the US Air Force (which has the added advantage of creating a new customer segment in the military)... until you learn engine development alone would require in the ballpark of $6 BILLION of capital. Aviation history is rife with examples of amazing, innovative aircraft designs that failed because no suitable engine was available.

Also, Boom leadership has set some ambitious goals, which makes me a bit skeptical. They plan on using sustainable aviation fuel (SAF). Great! But now they not only need to create a new engine, they need to create a new engine that runs off of a new fuel. Additionally, they've set a goal price of $5,000 for a New York to London roundtrip whereas Concorde would've cost $20,000 for the same route. Heck, I once paid $8,000 for a Boston to Tokyo roundtrip business class flight. Nothing wrong with setting such a goal (and Boom isn't even the party that sets route prices) and it's OK for marketing claims to be a tad optimistic, but this tests the limits of credibility.

Lastly, there's the issue of possible routes, which is primarily limited by noise constraints. Unlike the Concorde, which needed afterburners to produce sufficient thrust for takeoff, Boom is going for a no-afterburner design. While this should expand the number of airports the Overture can use since afterburners won’t be blasting the neighborhood, you’re still not going to be able to fly over land. Boom suggest 500 routes are supersonically viable[1], which I’d assume means “pairs of international airports separated mostly by water”. We might be talking about something like 50 actual airports. only a fraction of those routes are not just supersonically viable, but economically viable. Of course, commercial aircraft are designed for particular types of routes. An Embraer ERJ-145 regional jet and the Boeing 787 long-range wide-body jet fly different routes. I’m not expert on this though; maybe 500 routes is plenty for a “total addressable market” in the aviation industry,

To bring it all together: my big issues with Boom are, one, engine development and, two, the choice of “hard problems” they decided to take on (specifically, SAF & cheap tickets). My hopes are that the engines are in development, using SAF instead of conventional fuel isn’t a big deal if you design for from the start, and the $5,000 thing is more about saying how low, hypothetically, an airline could price tickets while making money. I’d also like to know what the current status of the state-of-the-art is in quiet supersonic flight. NASA’s quiet supersonic demonstrator, the Lockheed Martin X-59 QuSST, combined with regulators’ desire to decide on supersonic overland travel in 2028, would open up new routes like JFK-LAX for planes meeting noise requirements, should regulators decide to allow it.

My hypothesis on Boom’s design choices? Quiet supersonic cruise is still technically challenging and has an uncertain regulatory future, and the political tide may be turning towards greater regulation on fossil fuels. So, by using SAF, Boom ensures that their plan will at least fly in an uncertain regulatory future, even if there’s no overland flight. And, using what they learned developing the Overture, they’ll be in a position to develop a quiet supersonic transport should regulators give the green light.

[1] I’d interpret routes to be something like airport-pairs, as in Laguardia-Heathrow would be one route. If you Boom could fly from three airports in the US to or from three airports in Europe, you’d have nine routes (3*3). This article talks a bit about the lack of clarity with Boom’s “route” number: https://leehamnews.com/2021/06/04/hotr-500-destinations-for-...>

Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#345
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still, flying westbound fast makes tons of sense as you can arrive "before" you took off (local time) and thus you get a whole day in front of you. But eastbound makes a lot less sense, unless you're just trying to save time. Because flying at night eastbound won't make you gain much compared to a regular red eye and flying during the day, you'll land at night...

It always makes a lot of sense - time saved is time saved. Flying east fast after a day of meetings means you get in bed on time.

No it doesn't. You are forgetting timezones.

The above poster is correct - supersonics are suboptimal for eastbound, especially when you consider they can only be used at speed over the ocean.

A super sonic flight that leaves JFK at 6PM arrives at 2AM in LHR after 3 hours of flying plus a 5 hour time zone change.

It's much more optimal to take a lie flat seat on a traditional aircraft, get a decent nights sleep on the flight, land at 7AM, shower at the lounge, and charge forth with the day.

My view is that the lie flat bed is really what made supersonic obsolete, and I see Boom as largely a folly.

Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#346
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't have much to do with the point I'm making. I'm saying if you double fuel usage, you don't double the cost of using the plane. As cost of fuel is only a percentage of the price of the ticket, it's pretty obvious that there is a threshold as a percentage of total ticket cost under which spending 4x more in fuel to fly say 1.5x more passengers (because the airplane isn't flying 24/7) makes business sense. T…

Yeah, there is an epsilon on top of fuel. But maybe you missed the obvious fact that all aircraft are getting slower rather than faster over the last decades, so that threshold is in the opposite direction of what you're proposing. And there is zero logic behind your second obviousm, as your premise is already wrong. The reason they start with business class is because you can charge more per seat. Seems pretty obvio…

Fuel cost, depending on routes, number of business seats, seat occupancy is at about 25% of total costs [0]. 75% is what you call epsilon? Aircraft speed as barely budged since we transitioned from turboprop to jets. That's something you could call epsilon.

You're right that they start with business seats because they cost more. Business class seats cost 3-4x time economy while occupying less than 2x the space so the cost of fuel as a percentage of the ticket price is lower. It might not be obvious to you but I'm happy to explain it :)

[0] https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/travel-logistics-and-inf...

Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#347

IMHO a better title would have been: "American Airlines to buy 20 Overture aircraft from Boom Supersonic" When reading the original title, I had the impression that the company was going to be acquired by AA. Instead, it's "just" an order of 20 aircrafts. Note that this is not a new move by Boom, they played this card when raising money when they pitched at YC demo day, and they're doing it again. The problem I have…

I thought the same.

But, it's an interesting thought, and in line with a very interesting thread that kragen brought to my attention: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32009925

FedEx likes to buy out Boeing facilities so that they're not "completely reliant" on Boeing for anything, see https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/102874-fedex-to-take... "Air cargo carrier FedEx Express (FX, Memphis Int'l) is to take over the lease of Boeing's Dreamlifter Operations Centre at Paine Field, Everett, quashing any hopes of a return of the B787 Dreamliner production to Washington State."

I wonder why more airlines don't choose to do similar things.

Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#348
This is good news for Greensboro, NC and the NC Triad region. The Boom manufacturing/assembly will be done there (at least partially). HondaJet already manufactures there, and there are a number of other aerospace manufacturers in the area. (A lot of embedded and mixed-signal too.)

I live in a neighboring town not far from the boutique Triad Semiconductor, which designs digital/analog chips and components for many applications, including space.

Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#349
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't going to be applicable to 95+% of aviation, but for something like a flight between the US and Australia, e.g. LAX to SYD? Going from a 15h to 8h flight will be huge -- that's 30h to 15h round-trip. I'm American and visited Australia once, and realized I probably never would again, it's just too far. An Australian friend of mine here in the US only went home to see his family every few years. It just takes…

You don't need to go everywhere, really. Especially not halfway round the world for a vacation.

[deleted]

Re: American Airlines agrees to purchase Boom Supersonic Overture aircraft

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always makes a lot of sense - time saved is time saved. Flying east fast after a day of meetings means you get in bed on time.

No it doesn't. You are forgetting timezones. The above poster is correct - supersonics are suboptimal for eastbound, especially when you consider they can only be used at speed over the ocean. A super sonic flight that leaves JFK at 6PM arrives at 2AM in LHR after 3 hours of flying plus a 5 hour time zone change. It's much more optimal to take a lie flat seat on a traditional aircraft, get a decent nights sleep on th…

If I’m a jetlagged businessman in NYC, operating on internal London time, and I’m finishing my work day at 6PM local time/11PM internal time, I want to get home and wake up with my family ASAP rather than try and sleep on a plane.

Thank goodness for Zoom

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