I could have misread or maybe it was some sort of propaganda but I thought I read somewhere that Silicon Valley's caste discrimination is the inverse of what used to be in India? i.e. the lower castes discriminating against the higher castes.
In the US, you often see claims of "reverse racism", e.g. around affirmative action or just from general vibes. This is the equivalent - high caste people interpreting attempts at leveling the playing field as if they are being discriminated against.
Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
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Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
#392Curious, does this include Apple enforcing the policy with contractors, partners, etc — basically any business relationship Apple has a significant leverage over? Ask because Apple directly and indirectly consumes vast amounts of human labor in India. If not, has any company of significant size ever successfully made this a policy in India?
Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
#393Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm guessing they weren't sure whether caste was a protected class. Discrimination in law revolves around protected classes (race, religion, national origin, age and sex are the "big five" in the US, and subsequent acts and decisions have added sexual orientation/gender identity, familial status, pregnancy, disability, veteran status, and genetic information). If you act on the basis of that, someone can, well, make…
Why is caste not a subset of national origin or race? Do Indians who discriminate on the basis of caste also discriminate against non-Indians of a lower caste, or is it solely confined to other Indians? If not directly a protected class, why would this not clearly be a disparate impact type of case?
I'm not a lawyer, and have no idea if there is already precedent in the US specifically regarding castes, but there is a motion that national origin covers ancestry.
It's entirely possible that the legal department in the story above thought it was a cut and dry case and that's why they pushed hard to shut it down before it became one.
Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
#394Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you explain how correcting a past mistake is racism? Imagine you have two kids, and you only give one of them a cookie. Should you make up for it, by giving the next cookie to the kid who didn't get one? Of course!
> Can you explain how correcting a past mistake is racism? Because its not correcting a past mistake. But rather make new ones that inevittably are going to lead to even more resentment. And also hurting the ones you are supposedly helping by making them question whether they got in through their abilities or through diversity points. Which can lead to quite a large reduction in their self confidence. I would call th…
1. It will make some people resentful.
2. It will cause "doubt" among people who benefit.
In essence, your first argument is about further benefiting the people who are already in an advantaged position. And your second argument is blaming people who would benefit. Yikes. That is some twisted logic.
Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
#395How hard is it to fake being of a higher caste like Brahmin or Kshatriya? Since it’s not skin color but your heritage, can’t you falsify this information? Especially if you claim to be from some rural or remote location? Just how involved would someone try to investigate your background?
I'm not Indian but my understanding is that you can typically tell someone's caste by their last name. I'd also imagine there'd be a host of cultural information that would be hard to fake, like knowing certain prayers or rituals. Brahmin's are vegetarian, so you'd have to only eat vegetarian at the office to pretend to be one. I even had a friend who told me his sub-caste had their own secret language they spoke.
Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
#396Out of curiosity, for Indians working in America, how hard is it to hide your caste or pretend to be of another caste altogether? Is this something that comes up in conversation among Indians? Do names tend to correlate to you caste? And if so, do people change them as a way of hiding their family caste?
It's sad behavior. If it helps, here's a comment I wrote about my travels in India that might shed some light on the phenomena;
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My travels in India have been revealing.
Caste and class are inextricably linked, and a part of their daily vernacular. They're used as descriptors, "s/he's an X" (as if that means something to me!) And there's a huge coded language with inferences going on. It's a bit like saying, "s/he's jewish". Something that just doesn't happen in the US anymore (unless you're around rather unsavory folks)
It's such a deep part of the milieu that I'm not surprised when I hear stories about it being exported.
True story. I met this Indian woman while working out of the local hipster cafe. We had mutual friends. And ended up going out for lunch.
On the way back, she started asking questions about my background. They grew intensely personal. Until she was interrogating me on the sidewalk.
Unsatisfied with my responses, she just gave up & cut to the chase, "What's your mother's caste?"
Last I checked, she moved to the States and is a contractor for a FAANG.
She's hardly unique though. Indian people cannot stop asking questions. Where are you from? Where were you born? Why's your skin so pale? Where are your parents? What do they do? Where did you go to school? Why aren't you married?
What's worse is that the society is insular. Even in a big city, few people socialize outside of, in descending order of proximity, family > friends of the family > classmates from elementary school > people from their high school > college > (perhaps, sometimes) work.
I have met people who have gone through their entire life without ever meeting someone from a lower social class/caste. Casual greetings with people who clean their homes don't count.
There's a lack of je ne sais quoi. A certain lack of creative energy. A kind of absence of the meeting of free radicals that sparks interesting ideas and art. Culturally, it's as if, the society has submerged itself in halon, determined to not let the sparks of creativity and genius spark.
This problem is so acute that every free radical I've met has done their very best to move away as soon as humanly possible.
Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
#397I worked at a company where this was an issue at one point (granted this was one situation among a lot of employees). A manager was pretty much dismissive of everything anyone of a lower caste did / wouldn't communicate with them effectively. HR absolutely struggled with the issue. The HR folks tasked with dealing with discrimination issues largely had spent their time constructing company wide emails and classes tha…
Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
#398Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
#399Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's... Exactly the opposite of a blind spot in intersectionality. The idea that those in the intersections of marginalized groups suffer more doesn't come from some bizarre belief that those at the top mistreat them twice as much. It comes from recognizing that more people feel comfortable mistreating them. It's well-documented at this point that black women in the USA during slavery were mistreated just as much b…
Quoted post unavailable.
See, isn't innuendo fun?
Telling of what, precisely? If you think my point is false, please do say so. If you think my example isn't accurate, please say so. If you think my example is accurate but not a good analogy for the original discussion, please explain why that matters when I'm refuting a claim you made that is also not related to the original discussion.
Don't just slather on innuendo. Make arguments consisting of assertions of fact, reasoning from those asserted facts, and conclusions drawn from that reasoning.
Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
#400Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok are there also specific legal protections for Eye color, Hair Color, presence of Freckles, etc? Does every possible way to discriminate need to be clearly spelled out for it to be illegal?
No, there are not. (In the USA) You are legally allowed to discriminate based on non-protected classes as long as the non-protected class is not being used as a proxy for a protected class.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/employmen...
[Edit/spoiler: does not cover freckles!]