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Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

indiatoday.in

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Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#351

Post by pnathan »

teakettle42 wrote: post #330
pm90 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this is some sort of malicious conspiracy or evidence of anti whiteness or whatever. Processes are created for the common case and when there is an uncommon scenario, it is new territory for everyone involved and someone has to be responsible. In most corporate environments, nobody wants to be that person so inaction is generally the norm unless the course of action is straightforward or has precedent.

It’s a blind spot in DEI and intersectionality; the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrator’s class at all, but in fact, situational and individual.

> It’s a blind spot in DEI and intersectionality; the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrator’s class at all, but in fact, situational and individual.

what's really bleakly funny is that you're right - that's how it's taken, but that's actually a major _point_ of intersectionality.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#353

Post by boplicity »

lovecg wrote: post #187
boplicity wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it a strange hypothetical? Extremely similar situations were actually quite common historically. Many, many ethnic groups have been intentionally excluded from many types of jobs over the years. It's not just a hypothetical: It's a past reality that has real-world impacts that last through today. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/occupational-segreg... https://prospect.org/features/black-workers-remembe…

Have a specific company done what you were describing in your example or was this a societal level ill? Also the way you phrased your question (“should the racist status quo be allowed to continue, or should it be intentionally corrected?”) made it sound like you weren’t interested in having a discussion, thus the other comment.

Yes, of course, many companies in the U.S. had blatantly racist hiring practices that were eventually made illegal. Those practices have not always been corrected, though, and the racial demographics of many companies and positions have not shifted very much. This is a broad societal issue, as well as one that can be traced to individual companies.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#354

Post by chowells »

teakettle42 wrote: post #330
pm90 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this is some sort of malicious conspiracy or evidence of anti whiteness or whatever. Processes are created for the common case and when there is an uncommon scenario, it is new territory for everyone involved and someone has to be responsible. In most corporate environments, nobody wants to be that person so inaction is generally the norm unless the course of action is straightforward or has precedent.

It’s a blind spot in DEI and intersectionality; the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrator’s class at all, but in fact, situational and individual.

That's... Exactly the opposite of a blind spot in intersectionality. The idea that those in the intersections of marginalized groups suffer more doesn't come from some bizarre belief that those at the top mistreat them twice as much. It comes from recognizing that more people feel comfortable mistreating them.

It's well-documented at this point that black women in the USA during slavery were mistreated just as much by white women as white men, despite the weight of patriarchy causing white women to be mistreated by white men as well: oppressor in one situation, oppressed in another.

Intersectionality is calling out that those differences are present within groups, and that no analysis based on only a single axis can ever explain the full situation.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#355

Post by boplicity »

aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #334
boplicity wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone hires a person based on their color, that's wrong regardless of who's doing it. Let's say a company is set to hire 1,000 employees. For the first 900 hires, they intentionally exclude white people. Should they, then, make up for this intentional exclusion by then prioritizing white people in their hiring? Or should they correct the problem by giving those who were intentionally excluded priority? In othe…

If I slap you from the left, do I “correct” this by slapping you from the right? Or how about I stop slapping you?

I don't see how correcting a problem is violence. It's more like giving a kid a cookie when they didn't get one. Sure, the other kids will want to keep getting all the cookies, but that's not right, no matter how much they complain.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#356

Post by webmobdev »

Zvez wrote: post #348

I wonder is it really necessary to explicitly ban every sort of discrimination? Shouldn't it be simple 'discrimination is not allowed'? Otherwise we will be listing every type of discrimination and revisiting this list every now and then. And it leads to questions like 'is it acceptable to discriminate by boldness if it is not in the list?' While I agree that such not-so-well-known discriminations should be publicall…

Banning is the way to discourage it, and make people aware of the discrimination. How else do you propose we educate, spread awareness and discourage the act? Would you take something seriously if it wasn't banned and had consequences if you indulged in it? I don't think banning is wrong. But the punishment for it should be ideally mediation and education (with something like 3 or 4 strike rules because unfortunately some people are shit).

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#357

Post by adamsmith143 »

ab_testing wrote: post #245

I think this is a reason why Leetcode style interviews are popular. They remove at least one type of bias of race - the ability to solve coding problems. If you can solve Online Assessment, Phone Assessment and Onsites, you keep moving on to the next round, regardless of your race or ethnicity. It is a way for companies to claim that there is no bias in hiring.

This just introduces another type of bias, the "did you just graduate from a top 30 CS school or are you able to spend 6-12 months teaching yourself DS/Algorithms while working full time" bias.

Lots of "Stockholm syndrome" surrounding Leetcode style interviewing practices.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#358

Post by dang »

Related:

Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32464756 - Aug 2022 (95 comments)

Google’s caste-bias problem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32425308 - Aug 2022 (249 comments)

Google cancelled a talk on caste bias - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31593799 - June 2022 (946 comments)

Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30515099 - March 2022 (543 comments)

India’s tech sector reinforces old caste divides - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29994226 - Jan 2022 (5 comments)

The Casteism I See in America and American Tech Companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29133517 - Nov 2021 (5 comments)

How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26435117 - March 2021 (195 comments)

Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest tech companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698 - Oct 2020 (322 comments)

India’s engineers have thrived in the tech industry. So has its caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24923338 - Oct 2020 (6 comments)

How India's ancient caste system is ruining lives in Silicon Valley - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24555492 - Sept 2020 (47 comments)

Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 - Sept 2020 (613 comments)

Silicon Valley Has a Caste Discrimination Problem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065132 - Aug 2020 (14 comments)

California sues Cisco alleging discrimination based on India’s caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 - July 2020 (56 comments)

California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 - July 2020 (592 comments)

Ask HN: There is caste system in the Silicon Valley? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13704504 - Feb 2017 (6 comments)

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#359

Post by Manuel_D »

boplicity wrote: post #118
Bilal_io wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone hires a person based on their color, that's wrong regardless of who's doing it. This includes let's say for example an Indian that hires a white person just because they're white.

> If someone hires a person based on their color, that's wrong regardless of who's doing it. Let's say a company is set to hire 1,000 employees. For the first 900 hires, they intentionally exclude white people. Should they, then, make up for this intentional exclusion by then prioritizing white people in their hiring? Or should they correct the problem by giving those who were intentionally excluded priority? In othe…

> In other words, should the racist status quo be allowed to continue, or should it be intentionally corrected?

There's also the third option: stop discriminating entirely.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#360

Post by shreyshnaccount »

duxup wrote: post #189

I worked at a company where this was an issue at one point (granted this was one situation among a lot of employees). A manager was pretty much dismissive of everything anyone of a lower caste did / wouldn't communicate with them effectively. HR absolutely struggled with the issue. The HR folks tasked with dealing with discrimination issues largely had spent their time constructing company wide emails and classes tha…

ironic how discrimination classes kinda discriminated against other minorities by focusing mainly on white people. this has to be a The Office plot line
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