Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

indiatoday.in

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 667 posts

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#281

Post by ummonk »

tomrod wrote: post #114
ummonk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Casteism, while bad, is not racism. Saying casteism is ingrained in Indians on the other hand is racism.

This doesn't sound right. Weren't castes based on race and conquering populations initially? How would you describe casteism's status among expatriated Indian populations at a population level? Or is the fact one refers to a population at all to be help in contempt as "racism"?

> Weren't castes based on race and conquering populations initially?

No, that's a discredited theory from a century ago. The caste system as we know it began to come into being about two millennia ago, and the relative ancestries of some of the castes did to some extent reflect the impacts of invasions that had happened long before that. But the ancestry correlation is much stronger geographically and isn't even monotonic with respect to the traditional caste hierarchy.

> How would you describe casteism's status among expatriated Indian populations at a population level? Or is the fact one refers to a population at all to be help in contempt as "racism"?

If you're assuming that it's widespread amongst educated Indian-Americans in top tech companies, then yeah you're probably just engaging in racist stereotyping.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#282

Post by civilized »

michaelt wrote: post #278
civilized wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along with anyone who found this a difficult decision once the facts were clear. People with these beliefs don't belong anywhere in society where they can oppress others. Just as white people who think blacks are beneath them do not belong in any setting where they can affect a black person.

I'm not surprised some people found it a difficult decision to be honest. I mean, discovering a new form of discrimination, which only Indians can perform? And none of your fellow managers have ever heard of this stuff? And you don't know WTF a caste is? And I doubt the accused is telling HR "yeah, I discriminate on caste, got a problem with that?" - they might instead be saying "some of his behaviour towards me has…

I mean, certainly gather information and follow due process, but once it's clear what occurred, there is no question that a person who refuses to work with coworkers based on lower caste does not belong in any workplace with lower caste workers.

And anyone who resists that principle is a co-conspirator in caste-based oppression and should leave as well.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#283

Post by adamsmark »

How hard is it to fake being of a higher caste like Brahmin or Kshatriya?

Since it’s not skin color but your heritage, can’t you falsify this information? Especially if you claim to be from some rural or remote location?

Just how involved would someone try to investigate your background?

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#284

Post by colpabar »

duxup wrote: post #189

I worked at a company where this was an issue at one point (granted this was one situation among a lot of employees). A manager was pretty much dismissive of everything anyone of a lower caste did / wouldn't communicate with them effectively. HR absolutely struggled with the issue. The HR folks tasked with dealing with discrimination issues largely had spent their time constructing company wide emails and classes tha…

> HR absolutely struggled with the issue. The HR folks tasked with dealing with discrimination issues largely had spent their time constructing company wide emails and classes that revolved around white folks discriminating against others / concepts of privilege, absolutely froze when faced with a discrimination issue outside that stereotype.

Cue the pro DEI (i honestly don’t know what it’s called anymore) people claiming this wasn’t “real DEI”.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#285

Post by FlyingSnake »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #198
mcv wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food preferences? What if you happen to prefer food from a different caste?

They're referring to being vegetarian, which is a Brahmin marker. To be more precise, while a vegetarian is not necessarily Brahmin, a meat eater is unlikely to be a (practising) Brahmin, similar to pork and Islam/Judaism.

> a meat eater is unlikely to be a (practising) Brahmin.

It’s not always the case though. The Bengali Brahmins or the Sarasvat Brahmins of Konkan are predominately meat eaters. It’s all mixed up.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#286

Post by adaml_623 »

hk1337 wrote: post #176

I could have misread or maybe it was some sort of propaganda but I thought I read somewhere that Silicon Valley's caste discrimination is the inverse of what used to be in India? i.e. the lower castes discriminating against the higher castes.

Speaking as a person with zero knowledge of SV and caste discrimination I will make the observation that 'accusations' of discrimination can and are made by people in almost every conceivable group.

So yes you could very easily have read something like that. And more reading would be required for background and context to figure out who's telling the truth in different situations

Slightly off topic I am anticipating discussions and media reports in the next few years where the antipathy between two groups manifests as clear discrimination by both groups towards the other. But if neither group is clearly in a stronger socio-economic then how will we describe and talk about that problem. To be clear I think these situations exist already but I don't think they are being reported in.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#287

Post by peterhadlaw »

ausbah wrote: post #197
ketanmaheshwari wrote: post #76

This is a good step forward but wait until Apple realizes that Indians discriminate on many other factors including but not limited to skin color, state of origin, region of origin (North vs South vs NorthEast), mother tongue, religion (Hindu vs Muslim), Political beliefs (Left vs Right).

political beliefs aren't a protected class

They are, legally, in California

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#288

Post by pbhjpbhj »

boplicity wrote: post #118
Bilal_io wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone hires a person based on their color, that's wrong regardless of who's doing it. This includes let's say for example an Indian that hires a white person just because they're white.

> If someone hires a person based on their color, that's wrong regardless of who's doing it. Let's say a company is set to hire 1,000 employees. For the first 900 hires, they intentionally exclude white people. Should they, then, make up for this intentional exclusion by then prioritizing white people in their hiring? Or should they correct the problem by giving those who were intentionally excluded priority? In othe…

Can you get rid of unnecessary discrimination by continuing to discriminate, no.

Punishing people today who had no input into situations in the past, only because of a characteristic they have that they can not alter ... that's just breeding more resentment.

A teenager of my acquaintance was accepted last minute to an educational opportunity, it was well over-subscribed. When they got there they found there were actually places on the course which were not filled. The reason? Those places were only for people of the opposite sex. Students missed the opportunity due only to their sex. How is that fair for those students who missed out?

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#289

Post by ummonk »

mlyle wrote: post #144
ummonk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say either was fair game to criticize. Criticism of both tends to provide cover to or be motivated by racism. Especially when there isn't equal emphasis on WASP or Jewish nepotism, when most early tech companies tended to have mostly WASP or Jewish leadership.

I think even in diverse workplaces, there are a whole lot of islands of one ethnicity or another-- including very, very white groups. More than you would get by chance. This means a whole lot of racist personnel decisions are being made in all directions, and in a diverse workplace they kind of net-out OK? In any case, ignoring one awful problem because there are others that may be of higher magnitude (or may not...)…

"This means a whole lot of racist personnel decisions are being made in all directions" - not necessarily actually. Unless you count team / company choice by a prospective employee as racist. People often self-sort into cultural bubbles they feel most comfortable in.

Re: Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

#290

Post by rayiner »

laretluval wrote: post #130
rayiner wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically it tends to be high caste Indians who push this stuff (perhaps because of higher education levels). Maybe they’ll be circumspect about dishing it out to white people after some sessions having to confess their “Brahmin privilege.”

I predict they’ll love the opportunity to indulge in theatrical ethnomasochism, just like high status whites do.

I don’t know. Maybe that’s a Puritan thing.
Post reply on HN