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Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

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Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#71
post #36

Can I suggest a longer, but (I think) better route? Try the Data/ML Engineer route. Instead of going directly into ML, try to work as a “supporter” of those doing ML. There’s a HUGE gap there, specially if you’re a good programmer. There are a lot of people in the “pure” ML space, people with science background, with phDs, etc. But there’s not enough people to support them: taking their models to producing, building…

Data Engineer is the outsourced part of what no ML researcher wants to do - a thankless, high-pressure, dead-end job which in no way leads to actually doing ML later - it would pigeon-hole the OP as unfit for real ML. The best way is to take Stanford Deep Learning courses at SCPD, build a reputation, do real ML work (even if it's not a PhD, it's the same courses Stanford PhDs take).

I agree with your first sentence. I'm not sure I would recommend SCPD.

If you want to do real ML work, you pretty much need the PhD. This is a hard thing for people who have 140+ IQs but do poorly for whatever reason with formal education to accept, but it's true. Even if you get one real ML job without a doctoral degree, you won't get a second one.

Sure, other 140+ IQs can recognize very smart people with only (or not even) a bachelor's degree, but (a) your career in industry will be influenced by the opinions of not-smart but politically empowered people who rely on heuristics like educational prestige because they can't judge the genuine article, and (b) some of those 140+ are nevertheless scumbags and will use (a) against you.

If you want to be a serious player in an academic field like ML, you need to not only get the degree but start publishing and never stop. It doesn't matter all that much if your papers are any good; no one in industry will ever read them. But you need the image of a successful academic who's just slumming it and can go back any time.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#72
post #56
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, 100%. That said, most data scientists don't do what you would consider real work (meaning, I assume, interesting work with significant mathematical/analytical meat). There just isn't a lot that's both interesting and useful to private-sector rent-seekers whose opinions of your work determine whether or not you advance. Most of the people doing real ML in industry are prestige hires--they're hired because their…

Strongly disagree. There's a vast amount of work that doesn't involve unethical recommendation systems. Expand your horizon outside the Bay Area. The plurality of work I see is straightforward computer vision/NLP applications.

I suspect the work you're talking about could be easily handled by an intern working with Core ML and a MacBook.

The landscape is varied. There are companies doing real actual big leading edge stuff, there are companies where ML is sprinkled onto projects as a buzzword but no real interesting work happens, and companies that just need a practical small solution like the ones you mentioned, and could get by with Core ML, but don't because they hire a PhD who isn't aware of Core ML.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#74
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It highly depends. I was hired for a small research group that didn't have a product in production. Got hired for programming, was on the table discussing and contributing to research within a couple months without any background in ML.

In smaller teams/companies one gets to wear multiple hats. However, the term "Data engineer" was specifically created by/for ML folks to get rid of unpleasant repetitive work that has to be done but nobody looks forward to it.

Data engineers exist at organisations without any ML work.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It highly depends. I was hired for a small research group that didn't have a product in production. Got hired for programming, was on the table discussing and contributing to research within a couple months without any background in ML.

These types of anecdotes make the actual practice of both ML and AI seem rather, well, less than scientific. There is supposed to be Ph.D. level math behind all of this, yet an amateur with admittedly no ML background is part of the team. In Star Wars , it takes Luke Skywalker years to learn to use a light saber skillfully. Then in The Force Awakens , some ex-Stormtrooper with no training picks up the light saber and…

Fuck mystique.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#76
It's probably a bit too late to get into ML. It's oversaturated with a lot of wannabe "Machine Learning enthusiasts" If you still want to get into the field a masters/phd is a much safer way to get proper ML jobs and then prosper in them.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#77
post #48

1. Clarify your goal. Do you want to: a) Become an academic in mathematics/statistics. b) Become an academic in computer science with a focus on artificial intelligence. c) Become a MLE in "regular" statistical applications. Aka bayesian classification, "core" statistical principles. d) Become a specialized computer vision/natural language processing focused MLE. e) Become a generalist software engineer who can whip…

The Elements of Statistical Learning is by Hastie et al, not by Goodfellow. Goodfellow wrote Deep Learning. They are both available for free on their websites.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#78

Can I suggest a longer, but (I think) better route? Try the Data/ML Engineer route. Instead of going directly into ML, try to work as a “supporter” of those doing ML. There’s a HUGE gap there, specially if you’re a good programmer. There are a lot of people in the “pure” ML space, people with science background, with phDs, etc. But there’s not enough people to support them: taking their models to producing, building…

There are very few positions such as this, as most AI/ML companies models are in infancy and will be ready "some day".

Even if you find such a role it will be chaotic and not meaningful.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#79
I am going to give you some meta commentary.

> ML/DL research

I think you should apply ML deeply to a domain you care about, but see if you can find a domain that can be both generative as well as for understanding. If you are heavy into the math and don't need a grounding basis, maybe you don't need a domain to apply the ML research to, but the best scientists had a problem they were trying to solve, not just "doing research". Basically research in strong direction, for strong purpose solving a problem.

I guessed you asked a low level mechanical question. How do I get from A to B. You might already have the domain.

So to answer the actual question, I'd pick something like MNIST (digit recognition problem) and master it by hand from scratch using multiple techniques, as many techniques as I could find. So that I am applying each algorithm to a fixed problem, so that the algorithm and then later a paper the algorithm gets embedded in my mind.

Use only cleaned datasets, spend zero energy on those a the beginning. Cleaning is a separate job and two different things don't need to be learned here. In fact stick with only industry benchmark data so you can compare your results to more papers.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#80
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, 100%. That said, most data scientists don't do what you would consider real work (meaning, I assume, interesting work with significant mathematical/analytical meat). There just isn't a lot that's both interesting and useful to private-sector rent-seekers whose opinions of your work determine whether or not you advance. Most of the people doing real ML in industry are prestige hires--they're hired because their…

I’ve kinda developed the view that large organisations come to mirror the Russian Communist Party. I’m interested in “flow capture based on power relationships”. Do you have any recommended reading on this?

> I’ve kinda developed the view that large organisations come to mirror the Russian Communist Party.

Only the ones which have an unkillable cash cow. So, I suspect Google or large banks are mostly like that, but places like SpaceX or even large consulting firms (Delloitte, IBM etc., where managers essentially eat what they kill) cannot allow themselves to degenerate into a Chinese court.

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