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Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

support.signal.org

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Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#441
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal's SMS registration codes expire after a few minutes, so you wouldn't even need to know the duration of the incident. Let's be conservative and say the codes expire after 5 minutes (it's probably shorter), then Signal is registering 380 devices a minute.

380 devices / minute would imply Signal is adding 547,200 users / day, or 199,728,000 users / year. That seems way too high. Granted some could be multiple devices per user, but still...

i found this site with data about users and downloads https://www.businessofapps.com/data/signal-statistics/

Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#442
post #287
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't even call it bad. In may ways it's good, actually. It's good because it allows signal to build a product that is relevant and usable. Phone numbers only connect people and are a bridge to allow all the perfect crypto to do the legwork. The knee jerk "phone bad" reaction is understandable, sure. But I don't think it's warranted for Signal. Signal would look like Keybase without phone numbers. Keybase (or th…

People use telegram more and more which is based on usernames...

[deleted]

Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#443
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protobuf you linked does not support your claim that Signal uploads your contact lists. You'll note that AccountRecord does not contain a list of ContactRecords other than those pinned (4 max). Indeed the application UX does not either. I've asked for evidence twice and you have supplied none.

Look pal, I've given you all the information you need. It's really all right there. I can lead you to data, but I can't make you think. If you want to go on believing that someone at Signal has found a way to backup your contacts so that you can recover them when you use a new device that does not in any way involve Signal collecting your contacts and storing that data to push back down to you later be my guest. You…

Signal does not recover my contacts on a new device.

Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Destructive devices are NFA items, true. If you want to own a DD, you need to pay the $200 federal transfer tax, which is done by submitting a form to the ATF and getting a tax stamp from them. It's not a "permit", though. And there are no special limits on who can own one - if you can legally own a gun, you can legally own a DD or any other NFA item. One doesn't even need to be a US citizen or a permanent resident f…

This is the site that I was looking at: https://nationalfirearmsact.com/nfa-regulated-items/destruct... , which seems to spell out the background check as a requirement. It also says you need to be a resident of the US. Am I missing something?

Background check is a requirement for regular gun sales as well, except private person-to-person sales - in practice, this is the vast majority of transfers.

ATF can be more thorough with NFA items because the law doesn't have a limit on how long they can look at you, unlike those regular NICS checks which have a hard limit - but the list of things that makes one ineligible to own is the same.

As far as residency, you have to be a resident somewhere in US, but you don't need to be a permanent resident / green card. A student or a work visa is good enough, combined with proof of current residency (such as utility bill with your name and address).

This isn't quite what OP asked for, of course - you can't have one "shipped to your doorstep" - but this is also true for most regular firearms (there's a collector license that enables this for some old guns).

Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#445

The attack Twilio suffered is almost identical to the recent attack against Cloudflare: https://blog.cloudflare.com/2022-07-sms-phishing-attacks/ (even down the wording of the text messages, which are nearly identical). Cloudflare’s use of security keys prevented the attackers getting access to any accounts in that case. These attacks are sophisticated and are capable of bypassing TOTP or mobile-app-based MFA. If thi…

I'd contest the sophisticated characterisation. Phishing activity targeting banking has been doing this for ages and it's been common against office365 accounts for a long time as well. And it's plainly obvious to common sense that the adversary can just proxy the verification code check in a phishing attack.

Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#446

I absolutely do not understand why I have to link my very sensitive Signal account to a very insecure and hard to change ID: my phone number (which can be traced to my identity in too many ways). Why Signal does not allow fully anonymous IDs (like Threema does) is a mystery to me. Signal is fine for most users, but it is inherently _unsafe_ for high-value sensitive communications where participants can expect targete…

You don't. Register with Signal using a temporary number.

but if the temporary number gets recycled and somebody else uses it, can they re-register your account?

Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of your answers are in the links I provided, I'm more than happy to help, but please make an effort too. Here is the data that gets collected and stored in the cloud: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/blob/3553a28683d... > It also doesn't store any lists of who you contact; this claim is false. The entire point of Signal adding pins was to protect the data Signal now stores so that you can recover it. T…

I guess I'm just confused because I don't see how what you're linking answers my question. For example, the github link here shows mostly bool values and bytes. The strings I do see do include name, so I do get the argument that your name is stored (though you choose your name). But the code makes me think it is only storing a string to tell the program where your profile picture is. As I understand it, the server ho…

> I guess I'm just confused because I don't see how what you're linking answers my question.

You wanted to know what Signal was storing and if they could decrypt it. I linked to an FAQ which says:

Storage Service (the “cloud”) What is stored?

All information stored is encrypted; note again that each storage record uses a different derived key for encryption.

This protobuf file explains which information is stored, and how it is structured. You’re probably most interested in this part which shows the actual data that’s stored; it should be self-explanatory, so not copying the list here. Notably, message history is currently not backed up using Storage Service.

The "You’re probably most interested in this part" bit linked to that same github page.

The same FAQ continues:

What is it used for?

Restoring some information upon re-installation/registration of the Signal app (on same or new device) by entering your Signal PIN. This is only possible if you are re-registering with the same phone number you used previously. Not available if you’ve disabled the Signal PIN (in this case only possible with manual backup/restore (Android) or transfer (iOS); these methods additionally preserve your message history).

Syncing contacts and groups to linked devices (this is made possible by syncing the “base” storage service key to linked devices). This is still partially being done using Signal Protocol sync messages, but that is unreliable

This tells you what they are collecting, but you also wanted to know if they could access it, and the answer is yes. I linked to one article explaining some of problems with the security of Signal's set up, but here is another https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkyzek/signal-new-pin-featur...

> As for SGX, my understanding is that 1) this exploit is pretty technical 2) it requires physical access and 3) that it is not the primary method of security, but a secondary one.

Finding exploits is hard, using them is often pretty easy. As the article put it SGX enclaves are “a sort of wet paper bag for clustering sensitive info.” but if you're interested here's a discussion on some of the issues with SGX here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23468746

Physical access isn't a problem for state actors or Signal employees, and without the enclave we're back to being protected by 4 digit PINs again which is no protection at all.

Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#448
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those of us that do not need high privacy today might need it tomorrow, or maybe someone we frequently communicate with. We also have a responsibility to favor tools and practices that make those that really need privacy not stand out. Element or other Matrix clients are easy to use and lack the serious flaws I outlined for Signal.

I'd point out that for most people (I suppose that could change, and I wouldn't be upset if such changes resulted in better privacy), messaging is often phone-based and includes folks who use secure methods like Signal and Matrix as well as those who use iMessage and OEM SMS clients. When it comes to that sort of messaging ("I'm running a few minutes late and will meet you inside the restaurant," or similar) I don't…

Matrix bridges support iMessage and SMS and even Signal so you do not need to fragment your communications to multiple apps if you do not want to.

Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#449
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look pal, I've given you all the information you need. It's really all right there. I can lead you to data, but I can't make you think. If you want to go on believing that someone at Signal has found a way to backup your contacts so that you can recover them when you use a new device that does not in any way involve Signal collecting your contacts and storing that data to push back down to you later be my guest. You…

Signal does not recover my contacts on a new device.

> Signal does not recover my contacts on a new device.

Are you arguing that the feature to restore contacts doesn't exist or just stating that you can't make it work?

Re: Twilio incident: What Signal users need to know

#450
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link to the implementation? I'll agree that a 4 digit pin is rather egregious and trivially crackable. I don't know a single serious cryptographer that would allow such nonsense which is why your comment sounds so unbelievable. I thought they were blending the pin with some device-local entropy to make a reasonably strong key. I'd like to verify your claim.

Basically, they planned to get around much of the problem by depending on a very insecure secure enclave to make up for a lack of basic sound security practices. The scheme they came up with to store user data in the cloud was described here: https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/ The code is here: https://github.com/signalapp/SecureValueRecovery This site does a pretty good job of explaining why this isn't a…

They definitely do not encrypt your data with a 4 digit pin. They use Argon2 (a slow hash, not that it matters specifically here since the security depends largely on the entropy) to derive a 32-byte key. Then they derive subkeys: an auth key, and part of a final encryption key. The other part of the encryption key is 32-bytes of entropy. You store your entropy in an SGX enclave with a limited number of attempts allowed to combat the possibility of a weak pin.

Few things:

1. The vulnerabilities in question for SGX have been patched, only one of which affected Signal at all.

2. Signal preemptively combats any future speculative execution vulns by adding "don't speculate about this next branch" instructions before every single branch.

3. nit: SRV is a scheme to store the 256bits of entropy in the cloud, not the actual user data. It's unclear from those links whether Signal has actually deployed the "store encrypted contacts" portion.

4. It is concerning that the security of this entropy is tied to Intel's SGX implementation.

5. If you use a strong password, which security nuts would, none of this matters.

6. If you turn off your pin, none of this happens at all (so it's at least opt out but IIRC setting a pin was optional).

7. I don't find your interpretation particularly charitable to the truth of what's actually happened. It's incredibly reactionary.

I will give you:

1. The trust model for Signal has changed to include a dependence on a piece of Signal cloud to enforce a rate limit on (really access to) escrowed entropy IFF you use a weak pin.

2. There does seem to be unnecessary confusion surrounding this whole thing.

What bothers me reading through this is that it was never made clear to users that the security model would change if you enabled a weak pin, in other words that the strength of your pin/password is now important if you don't/can't/won't trust Signal+Intel. If that was made clear there would be no issues at all and concerned citizens would simply disable their pin and deal with the not-improved UX or choose a strong pin such that the entroy escrow SVR thing is entirely moot.

I don't think they need to update their privacy policy or user agreement to reflect these technical implementation details, though, as I've previously stated.

Moxie blames the poor reception on not having analytics. I'd say they should have known, it's pretty obvious you can't pretend you don't need a password and try to hide it from users if you want to add stuff that needs a password, like usernames. But I also know from first hand experience how difficult it is to just sit there and say "whelp, we can't build this thing that will make many users happy and make the product better because it isn't perfect".

What's sad is actually that this is all in service of enabling username messaging and dropping the phone number requirement which is exactly what everyone is yelling about. So it's like, they listen to feedback from people who want to use Signal without a phone number requirement. Then they build the thing that lets them take a crack at the nut. And then they get reamed by HN for having the audacity to try and build a secure solution to a problem that largely only exists on HN and only for Signal (nobody gives a shit that every other app under the sun just stores your contacts in plaintext). Must really suck to get that kind of response.

I'll probably go turn off my pin. I have no interest in signal managing my contacts.

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