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Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

reuters.com

101–110 of 116 posts

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#101
post #63

Being from a minority religion in India and being an American of Indian origin, it is strange working on tech, because my family's presumed caste (which I assume is very low because we're not Hindu [1]), ends up dictating a lot of interactions with indians from India. Most American born ones don't seem to care. [1] the wife of my dad's friend who is high caste brahmin refused to enter our home and stayed in my brothe…

> which I assume is very low because we're not Hindu Caste does not go away if you convert to an Abrahamic religion. Asian christians pray in separate churches and are buried in separate cemeteries from White Europeans. Non-black christians/muslims/jews have a history of treating their black counterparts very differently.

> Asian christians pray in separate churches and are buried in separate cemeteries from White Europeans

I can only speak to my own experience and this is not mine.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#102
post #63

Being from a minority religion in India and being an American of Indian origin, it is strange working on tech, because my family's presumed caste (which I assume is very low because we're not Hindu [1]), ends up dictating a lot of interactions with indians from India. Most American born ones don't seem to care. [1] the wife of my dad's friend who is high caste brahmin refused to enter our home and stayed in my brothe…

> ...ends up dictating a lot of interactions with indians from India. Most American born ones don't seem to care. As a counter anecdote, I know several tens of families of both India-born and American-born Indians, and caste has never been brought up or mentioned in the US. It's...just not something you talk about, a bit like race usually doesn't come up in conversations, unless you're talking about it in the context…

It's not talked about in India either. They just assume it based on your behaviors, etc, as the article states.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#103
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person who claims they have no such beliefs is lying. When you remove the human element (including intuition, tacit knowledge, reading of social-behavioral cues, and subjective assessments of temperament and character), you're going to get absurdities that cost society way more than any conceivable benefit.

>The person who claims they have no such beliefs is lying. prove it. Anyway, doesn't seem likely, there are first of all various medical and psychological conditions in which intuition, reading of social-behavioral cues, and subjective assessments of temperament and character are impacted, which would mean that some people with these conditions would not be prone to the beliefs that come from these states. Furthermor…

You have four candidates who are all the same on paper--have the same qualifications, experience, etc--and will be serving as a critical liaison between your customers and the technical team.

Which one do you hire?

(1) The candidate with a face tattoo and ear gauges (holes) who was observed to "roll coal" when he left the interview in a lifted truck with entirely too many skulls and anarchist emblems.

(2) The one with an extremely thick accent that is near unintelligible. [HR says he has a top TOEFL score and satisfies the "speaks English" requirement.]

(3) The candidate who showed up a little late, a little underdressed, a little distracted--maybe demure--, and who just generally didn't seem to want the job.

(4) The candidate who is enthusiastic, pleasant, good at small talk, and who uses the "do you have any questions for us?" part of the interview to ask surprisingly pertinent/proactive questions about the challenges your team is facing instead of focusing on benefits/pay etc.

You might argue that many of the attributes I've mentioned are valid "professional qualifications". But remember, that term--under OPs law--will not be your notion of qualifications: it'll be a contorted mess of statue plus case law plus HR policies plus things you can clearly articulate in advance in the job criteria and prove to some jury against a plantiff with a sob story.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asian christians pray in separate churches that's not due to some artificial separation like caste... it's something to do with homesickness/cultural/language-related natural phenomenon. (eg. church pastor is a friend of a relative etc) and no one thinks one is above the other due to the separation. (except for cooking...)

In extreme cases, white christians even kill the non-white christians in their separate christian church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting

Wow, how did you work out that Dylann Roof (the murder) was christian?

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asian christians pray in separate churches that's not due to some artificial separation like caste... it's something to do with homesickness/cultural/language-related natural phenomenon. (eg. church pastor is a friend of a relative etc) and no one thinks one is above the other due to the separation. (except for cooking...)

In extreme cases, white christians even kill the non-white christians in their separate christian church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting

hm maybe I can just bring bunch of examples

and conclude that people just regulary kill other people just because they feel like it...

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#107
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The person who claims they have no such beliefs is lying. prove it. Anyway, doesn't seem likely, there are first of all various medical and psychological conditions in which intuition, reading of social-behavioral cues, and subjective assessments of temperament and character are impacted, which would mean that some people with these conditions would not be prone to the beliefs that come from these states. Furthermor…

You have four candidates who are all the same on paper--have the same qualifications, experience, etc--and will be serving as a critical liaison between your customers and the technical team. Which one do you hire? (1) The candidate with a face tattoo and ear gauges (holes) who was observed to "roll coal" when he left the interview in a lifted truck with entirely too many skulls and anarchist emblems. (2) The one wit…

first of all you said there was nobody immune to prejudice, but when called on proving it you turn it into a question about my own immunity, which I never claimed to possess.

second of all this seems like a variation of that old interview question - tell me a reason why we should hire you over any other candidate that had your same skills but had X (I was asked once why should we hire you instead of someone who speaks our language better) to which I replied obviously if you have someone who has all the same skills but one thing better than me you should hire that person.

Going back to the problems that were initially under discussion; The problem that is supposed to be addressed is not candidates who have all the same skills and abilities and how to choose one because at that point you might as well just draw lots. The problem is candidates who have superior skills but are not taken, candidates with inferior skills but right social markers being preferred.

> it'll be a contorted mess of statue plus case law plus HR policies plus things you can clearly articulate in advance in the job criteria

HR policies and clear articulation of job criteria are things the company controls, but in your scenario they seem to be some insurmountable barrier put in place to catch them out. An organization that is damaged by its own HR policies and job criteria should do something to fix that.

>and prove to some jury against a plantiff with a sob story.

If you chose a candidate from a list of candidates that all were exactly the same qualified it seems doubtful that the sob story will be much good.

Finally:

candidate number 1 doesn't seem likely to me because my prejudices tells me the candidate with face tattoos AND ear gauges is most likely a member of Earth First, and is not going to roll coal but will probably have gotten to the interview on skateboard or something else generally environment friendly.

Candidate number 2 so you're saying HR made a mistake and he did not pass the speaks English requirement adequately.

I don't think I would care much about differences between 3 and 4.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#109

I see the claim made that caste-ism doesn't fall under existing discrimination laws, but I don't really see how it's actually any different from run-of-the-mill racism. Caste is familially inherited. So a person is being judged based upon their ancestry. The only difference between "that group of families is inherently inferior" and "that race is inherently inferior" seems to be how broadly/narrowly you define "race"…

The interesting thing about caste is that it's basically invisible: unlike race, you can't tell somebody's caste by looking at them. (There is some correlation to skin color, but there are also plenty of eg Tamil Brahmins who are very dark-skinned.) Which is why caste-conscious Indians meeting new people go through an elaborate dance asking about family name, where they're from, if they're vegetarian etc to figure ou…

While in the USA at the moment, I would agree that most racism that's seen is based on clearly-visible skin color, I would argue that's a fairly new development.

My grandparents were born in the 1920s. One side is Polish, the other side is Italian. With the exception of my Grandfather who looked extremely Sicilian, none of them would have their ethnicity readily apparent to someone in the late 30s who may have posted a job with "Poles need not apply". Until they mentioned their surname, of course.

There's plenty of racism still against Jewish people as well, and I would argue that the vast majority of Jewish people are utterly invisible, unless someone jumps through very similar hoops to the Indians you mention, asking about family name etc.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#110

I see the claim made that caste-ism doesn't fall under existing discrimination laws, but I don't really see how it's actually any different from run-of-the-mill racism. Caste is familially inherited. So a person is being judged based upon their ancestry. The only difference between "that group of families is inherently inferior" and "that race is inherently inferior" seems to be how broadly/narrowly you define "race"…

Caste is discrimination based on religion. The discriminator views the victim as being less deserving based on religious ideology. The religious ideology insists that a person born to a certain caste deserves it based on something they supposedly did in a past lifetime. It thus excuses the prejudicial behavior as a form of cosmic justice.

I can understand that this is how those who participate in caste discrimination may justify it to themselves.

But, I do not see how in the US, that claim somehow makes its way around racial discrimination laws, where to someone not sharing that religious belief, it very much appears as though people are simply discriminating based on ancestry i.e. race.

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