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Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

reuters.com

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Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#31
There are so many issues conflated around 'caste' and Indians. Let me unravel a bit using my experiences in the corporate world and anecdotes from friends.

1. Whoever first came to USA on H1-B (just before Y2K) are in high positions at many companies. They are VPs, not because they have good managerial skills, not because they have great competence in solving technical problems. Just they came early, these folks got green cards so fast, and they got Exec MBA from weekend/night schools. You can see a lot them at many FANG companies with MBA from Wharton or berkely-columbia mba, etc.

2. Just like a white VP from X co, hires his subordinates and friends from his old company, these Indians follow the footsteps of these white leaders. Mind this, before harping about 'caste'. When white managers engage in whatever Indians do, you won't call it 'casteism', but you call it cronyism and collusion. You can see this in every mega company, where new SVP brings in his cronies from his old company, and tries to get rid of the old structure.

3. In India, going to USA to work for a software company is seen as a bragging right (unlike those Indians who come to USA to work for cruise liners--C-1/D visa). So, when fellow country men come to work with an Indian in the states, these Indians get jealous, not because of caste, but because of the fact "oh, I am not unique anymore, as more Indians are coming to America". My friend, who is not a brahmin, but belongs to non-reservation category in India, was given hard time by a person belonging to the same caste as he does. In another place, his contract was not renewed even though his Indian manager wanted him, but this full time employee who speaks the same language as my friend, has grudges against my friend. These cases are dime a dozen: no brahmins involved here.

4. The trash from the point 1 (esp senior management who got lucky because they came early to usa, and moved up the ladder faster) is replicating the corporate illness that non-Indians do. Instead of socializing at golf clubs, these people socialize by inviting each other to their homes.

5. H1-B is the large culprit of exploitation of Indians. Karlheinz Deschner, in his 10 volume work on Christianity, said this: "the oppressed become the future oppressors". Same thing is happening here: now, Indian managers at FAANG and other companies, exploit their country men. Here, the white senior management is culprit: they just put Indians as managers for Indians, and ask them to deliver results. When green card process takes decade, what can one do? Here is one example I experienced at CISCO: all team members are Indians, almost all on H1B; I saw my colleagues replying to emails from 6 am to 11 pm. Everyone tries to oneupmanship in these teams.

6. Imagine India sent only 10 Indians every year to USA. In such a case, every Indian would have helped their new countrymen. USA has 3 million Indians. Here, every Indian colleague is jealous of another Indian. I am not saying that white people are selfless. With respect to Indians, one more dimension of jealousy should be added.

7. One of things Indian learned in India is chamchagiri (brown-nosing). Look at all those Brahmin (and non-brahmin as well) authors of Sanskrit to English translations during British Raj. In the second page of their books, you see "dedicated to Lord Viceroy blah blah". This is something almost every Indian has mastered. So, this makes these Indians probe each other about their backgrounds, their interests, their sh1tty after-work cricket/basketball camaraderie, their weekly visits to lunches, etc. Here, everyone is assessing everyone else: if Mr X is super smart in coding/solving problems, other colleagues brown-nose this Indian guy; if Mr Y is a chamcha (ears) for a Sr Director of Engg, people try to be nice to him; this is the shit these people do; etc. Next time, when your Indian colleagues go for beer party, or to play a game or to watch a movie with their Indian managers, wear these lens to see what these Indian subordinates do. Even if you are a brahmin, and if your boss is a brahmin, still you have to do a bit of brown nosing to move up--by talking about some Carnatic music or by discussing about some ritual you gonna do next month, etc.

8. There is something Indian about Indian managers. In old days, say, Zamindars (a person, who has a lot of land/zamin), had a lot of servants. These servants dedicate their lives to them. Whenever a son of a servant goes to college, the servant asks Zamindar for financial help; whenever someone in his family is sick, the servant asks a favor from the big boss(zamindar). In these situations, the big boss gives money, sometimes jewelry for servants' daughters' marriage. In other words, servants expect more than salary, and a good boss delivers on these 'un-assumed', 'un-enforceable' obligations.

When Indians become managers, they act like these Zamindars, but these Indian managers don't deliver on 'un-assumed', 'un-enforceable' obligations. These managers just use their Indian subordinates, by calling them at 8 pm to deliver on some feature because some VP wanted it for Tuesday's demo.

9. There are Indian bodyshops. Owners of these bodyshops came before Y2K, after Y2k. They just sponsor H1b en-masse; then these guys tell their employees, "oh your billing rate is $65, and shows a fake contract from primary vendor that shows $65 per hr, while he actually bills $100 per hr". Whenever an Indian employee transfers out his H1-b to another company, this bodyshop owner doesn't pay him 3 months of salary. This is how many Indian bodyshop owners became multi-millionaires.

I can go on. Don't blame Brahmins in any of these. Just look at a broader picture of how Indians operate.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically untouchables... but in practice white people can be very high caste indeed. I worked with a sanskritist in Chennai who was a very traditional brahman, and he did eat with me, but was extremely careful about separate food and separate plates (Tamilian Brahmans of that type are always careful about these things, but he was more careful than needed. I didn't mind since I'm jewish and used to weird dietary re…

So technically Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates and Elon Musk are untouchables in that system?

They don't have caste... and it's important to note caste != class. There are dirt poor brahmans and rich dalits.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#33

In this system, what caste are non Indians?

Technically untouchables... but in practice white people can be very high caste indeed. I worked with a sanskritist in Chennai who was a very traditional brahman, and he did eat with me, but was extremely careful about separate food and separate plates (Tamilian Brahmans of that type are always careful about these things, but he was more careful than needed. I didn't mind since I'm jewish and used to weird dietary re…

Just curious, did you notice if your plate was made of silver ?

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically untouchables... but in practice white people can be very high caste indeed. I worked with a sanskritist in Chennai who was a very traditional brahman, and he did eat with me, but was extremely careful about separate food and separate plates (Tamilian Brahmans of that type are always careful about these things, but he was more careful than needed. I didn't mind since I'm jewish and used to weird dietary re…

Just curious, did you notice if your plate was made of silver ?

Sanskritists can't afford silver plates... it was the standard cheap metal everyone uses.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#35
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question - once immigrated to the US or other places, what makes ones caste obvious? Is it found out by surname? Can it be faked ( not saying that's a acceptable solution, but it obviously doesn't seem work).

While last name is the big giveaway for caste, there's another issue that effects tech workers in the us, the IITs. These are the creme de la creme of indian educational istitutions (and to be honest, the single smartest group of people i've ever met). A certain percentage of seats in the IITs are reserved for people from low castes, and the IITs are tiny, so the graduates tend to know each other. Thus the reputation…

How would the reputation follow you unless you were working with someone who knew you personally from IIT? And that person would have to be in the same or a closely associated team for there to be any interaction. Those seem to be really long odds, given that, as you said, IITs are tiny. They would be long odds for any college, tbh, and not just IITs.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#37
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question - once immigrated to the US or other places, what makes ones caste obvious? Is it found out by surname? Can it be faked ( not saying that's a acceptable solution, but it obviously doesn't seem work).

While last name is the big giveaway for caste, there's another issue that effects tech workers in the us, the IITs. These are the creme de la creme of indian educational istitutions (and to be honest, the single smartest group of people i've ever met). A certain percentage of seats in the IITs are reserved for people from low castes, and the IITs are tiny, so the graduates tend to know each other. Thus the reputation…

People know people who know people... the IITs are a really small world, and a lot of the graduates end up working in american tech companies.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, did you notice if your plate was made of silver ?

Sanskritists can't afford silver plates... it was the standard cheap metal everyone uses.

K just wondering. Sometimes they serve guests in silver plates, and usually they don't have more than one set. So it might appear like your utensils are separate.

The food thing might be separate to tone down the spice levels for what's served to you.

Re: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy

#39

I wonder what's gonna happen once these reporters find out about regionalism (people favoring those who speak their mother tongue or those from the same state they grew up in India). These type of professional networks at work are so much more common. Many seem to forget India is a very diverse nation and you end up with entirely different cultures in the same nationality.

Hey Tamilians are gonna represent right?
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