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Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

spiegel.de

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Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#281

Post by ed_balls »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #250
ed_balls wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't said that. They want to go back to status quo ante, hence "French President Emmanuel Macron has sparked a new wave of criticism and incomprehension over his calls to avoid humiliating Russia in Ukraine" Also, that's the reason why Germany was relying on gas from Russia. They are not idiots. It was not a stupid single point of failure, but geopolitics.

> that's the reason why Germany was relying on gas from Russia. They are not idiots. Geopolitics pits Germany and Moscow as geopolitical rivals, as they’ve been for centuries. If the goal was building an alliance, letting one side unilaterally cripple your industrial base without similar unilateral counterstrike options is a strategic blunder. Berlin can’t do much, unilaterally, to Moscow. Even if we assume the Lisbo…

> Geopolitics pits Germany and Moscow as geopolitical rival

Only when the land between Moscow and Berlin is subjected to either state (division of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact)

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#282

Post by ed_balls »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #251
ed_balls wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for land transport becoming more efficient than ocean, that’s a pipe dream I don't remember exact numbers from 2019, but it was something like: Air: 1 metric tonne: $100, 24h Rail: $40; 10 days Ship: $8; 30 days Let's say it's 2049 and we have 4 powers: new Europe, USA, China and India. China starts the full scale blockade of Taiwan to wait for the USA for the kinetic escalation. Only USA ships are blocked, so J…

> USA ships are blocked, so Japan, Korea, Europe do nothing. The situation last for years. The freight cost goes up massively due to risk, the fuel is 2x-3x more expensive - cheap oil is gone and the last big reserve is in Arctic. Magnetic rail China-Europe is finished and you stack up 3 containers which are delivered in 48h. Land transportation became better than ships How did a blockade around Taiwan turn into a gl…

> How did a blockade around Taiwan turn into a global maritime halt?

Not a halt but increase of costs. 2/3 of world trade is near Taiwan. The insurance premiums will skyrocket. USA aka World Police will be busy with China, which will lead to tensions in other places and piracy. Business will pick rail if it's a bit more expensive (say 20%) and you get products faster.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#283

Post by natmaka »

T-A wrote: post #108
cycomanic wrote: post #35

It is interesting to note how everyone talks about the dependency on gas in Germany, while nobody mentions France. If we look at the two graphs: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/En... https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/abm6r4/germanys_en... We can see that both Germany and France use about the same percentage of gas in their energy mix. Making this discussion a reason to revive nuclear…

But as of April, only 17% of France's gas imports came from Russia: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/04/27/h...

20.1% of France's uranium come from Kazakhstan.

https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2022/01/24/l-in...

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#284

Post by KingOfCoders »

elefanten wrote: post #126
Kon5ole wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, see for example the Asse II mine, where taxpayers must pay for relocating nuclear waste since the operator no longer exists as a going concern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asse_II_mine As far as I have been able to determine this is in fact how nuclear power is run in most of the world. Nuclear power is heavily subsidized by borrowing money from future generations. We are currently entering that future, as for…

But that dynamic is true of other energy sources too. We’ve never priced fossil fuels correctly vs their externalities. So doing that only for nuclear would be an even greater distortion.

1. Whataboutism

2. The topic of the discussion was about atomic energy

3. Yes

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#285

Post by KingOfCoders »

the8472 wrote: post #127
ThrowawayTestr wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Unlike gas and coal, nuke plants have to pay to clean up their waste before it's created.

Not quite, the mandatory insurance is capped at 2.5G€. The taxpayer would have to cover the rest. Compared with the fukushima cleanup costs that's quite insufficient.

Yes, and no one knows what Fukushima will costs, current estimates differ, but $200G are mentioned - the insurance would be 1% of costs.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#286

Post by ehvatum »

_ph_ wrote: post #269
aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15% of German electricity production is from natural gas. https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris...

Yes, and? Currently less than 35% of the German gas comes from Russia. Leaves way enough for electricity. The question is only, who gets cuts, if there isn't enough gas in the winter. The law says, industry first, heating second. The only debate is, how much cuts to private heating are a good trade off for supporting the industry. And as the Germany are very protective of the industry, there will probably a compromis…

I’m paying 60x more for power in Toten, Norway because Germany is importing so much electricity from us. It’s a huge annoyance. We never should have allowed connection outside of the peninsula to you moron Germans.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#287

Post by aaaaaaaaaaab »

ehvatum wrote: post #286
_ph_ wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and? Currently less than 35% of the German gas comes from Russia. Leaves way enough for electricity. The question is only, who gets cuts, if there isn't enough gas in the winter. The law says, industry first, heating second. The only debate is, how much cuts to private heating are a good trade off for supporting the industry. And as the Germany are very protective of the industry, there will probably a compromis…

I’m paying 60x more for power in Toten, Norway because Germany is importing so much electricity from us. It’s a huge annoyance. We never should have allowed connection outside of the peninsula to you moron Germans.

But according Germans that’s impossible, because they’re net exporters* in electricity!

(* terms and conditions apply, grid stability is not guaranteed)

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#288

Post by koheripbal »

the8472 wrote: post #117
koheripbal wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are three remaining plants in Germany, all scheduled to shut down this year. The Government doubled-down on it's decision claiming that the plants didn't have the resources to continue operations. In a rare moment, the operators of the plants embarrassed the gov't by going public that they could indeed continue to run safely. One thing to note is that the prime minister appointed the head German head of Greenpe…

She isn't responsible for energy, infrastructure or finance, which should be responsible departments regarding the power plants. > On February 8, 2022, it was announced that she was to be appointed to the Federal Republic of Germany's Federal Foreign Office as a special representative for international climate policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Morgan_(activist)

She has publicly said that nuclear power has no place in Germany's future energy policy AS PER HER CLIMATE POLICY PLAN.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#289

Post by _ph_ »

aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #287
ehvatum wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m paying 60x more for power in Toten, Norway because Germany is importing so much electricity from us. It’s a huge annoyance. We never should have allowed connection outside of the peninsula to you moron Germans.

But according Germans that’s impossible, because they’re net exporters* in electricity! (* terms and conditions apply, grid stability is not guaranteed)

Can you do anything but make stupid comments without content? Yes, Germany is a net exporter, but Germany is part of the European grid. There is a joint market, where electricity is balanced across Europe every minute. The same country which is a net exporter can import in some parts of the day. France is a good example, because they mostly use rather slow nuclear power plants. But as they are part of the European grid, they rather vary between export and import than trying to adjust their power output to their current domestic usage. At minimum that makes electricity cheaper as the plants are run closer to the optimum power point.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#290

Post by _ph_ »

ehvatum wrote: post #286
_ph_ wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and? Currently less than 35% of the German gas comes from Russia. Leaves way enough for electricity. The question is only, who gets cuts, if there isn't enough gas in the winter. The law says, industry first, heating second. The only debate is, how much cuts to private heating are a good trade off for supporting the industry. And as the Germany are very protective of the industry, there will probably a compromis…

I’m paying 60x more for power in Toten, Norway because Germany is importing so much electricity from us. It’s a huge annoyance. We never should have allowed connection outside of the peninsula to you moron Germans.

If anyone, you would be the moron. If Norvegian electricity is more expensive because of Germany, then because Norway is selling it at that higher price. If Norway wouldn't sell it, there would be no money flowing from Germany to Norway. Where the money goes? Well ask your fellow Norvegians and don't blame your countries customers.

P.S.: if anyone, France is guilty of the current high electricity price in Europe. They are failing behind producing enough electricity for local consumption and consequently drive the sport market price up.

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