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The Remote Pop-In (2021)

twos.dev

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Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#51

Post by BlargMcLarg »

qq66 wrote: post #50
2easy wrote: post #25

I don't get it. Why people are trying to recreate the horrors of the office? Is it because of luck of human connection? In my opinion everyone who's advocating "meetings" - formal or not - is just unable to express thoughts in writing. You have to learn to communicate asynchronously and become a better writer rather than trying to recreate the dysfunctional environment that you are familiar with.

There is only a small subset of organizations with a small subset of members tackling a small subset of problems that can achieve their goals fully asynchronously. For everything else, synchronous meetings will continue to be essential (and even those projects like Linux which seem to be fully asynchronous usually have one contributor who dominates the project and thus the communication overhead/latency problem isn't…

>There is only a small subset of organizations with a small subset of members tackling a small subset of problems that can achieve their goals fully asynchronously.

Both this assumption and the gp's assumption are just that: assumptions. It's fascinating how a few years of half-hearted attempts with status quo management all too eager to revert to at-location is used as a way to support this.

It's still way too early to make such a bold statement.

Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#52

Post by 2easy »

qq66 wrote: post #50
2easy wrote: post #25

I don't get it. Why people are trying to recreate the horrors of the office? Is it because of luck of human connection? In my opinion everyone who's advocating "meetings" - formal or not - is just unable to express thoughts in writing. You have to learn to communicate asynchronously and become a better writer rather than trying to recreate the dysfunctional environment that you are familiar with.

There is only a small subset of organizations with a small subset of members tackling a small subset of problems that can achieve their goals fully asynchronously. For everything else, synchronous meetings will continue to be essential (and even those projects like Linux which seem to be fully asynchronous usually have one contributor who dominates the project and thus the communication overhead/latency problem isn't…

That's because people suck at communication - especially programmers. I lead remote teams and it is totally possible. The only essential "meetings" we have are retrospectives in which we discuss how to work/communicate with each other better. Good communication requires a lot of energy, bad communication requires meetings. We only have meetings unless absolutely necessary, not some laughable "pop ins"

Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#53

Post by 2easy »

jen729w wrote: post #36
2easy wrote: post #25

I don't get it. Why people are trying to recreate the horrors of the office? Is it because of luck of human connection? In my opinion everyone who's advocating "meetings" - formal or not - is just unable to express thoughts in writing. You have to learn to communicate asynchronously and become a better writer rather than trying to recreate the dysfunctional environment that you are familiar with.

I disagree with the modern blanket assumption that meetings are bad. Meetings do not have to be bad. Now most meetings are bad, I’ll give you that. But a well-run meeting, with purpose, which doesn’t faff on and respects the participants’ time, is still a very effective way to get something done. It is a fallacy that every meeting can be replaced with email. I hate email more than I hate even a mediocre meeting.

Yeah, especially random-pop-ins-by-anyone-with-no-agenda as a culture

Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#54

Post by 2easy »

throwawaysleep wrote: post #29
2easy wrote: post #25

I don't get it. Why people are trying to recreate the horrors of the office? Is it because of luck of human connection? In my opinion everyone who's advocating "meetings" - formal or not - is just unable to express thoughts in writing. You have to learn to communicate asynchronously and become a better writer rather than trying to recreate the dysfunctional environment that you are familiar with.

Introverts view them as horrors. Extroverts love this stuff. I view meetings as next to worthless as nothing is retained as nobody writes anything down (and I am not willing to pay attention enough to do it as a rank and file dev who won't be blamed for it).

I agree. Meetings are exclusive, usually poorly documented time wasters.

Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#55

Post by the_gipsy »

a1371 wrote: post #21

I am always pretty concerned about a "hot mic" situation. Not because I might say something outrageous, but because perhaps I want to sing the lyric stuck in my head, or problem solve by taking to myself out loud. Managing to disconnect is already somewhat hard when you jump in and out of meetings on multiple platforms. All it takes is forgetting a button and you're broadcasting yourself by accident. As a user, that'…

The famous zoom fart that highlights you.

Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#56

Post by BlargMcLarg »

jeffbr13 wrote: post #49
phailhaus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is inferior to the pop-in for the interrupter, but superior for the interruptee I don't see how either of those are true for phone calls. 1. It's ideal for the interrupter: they get to decide when they want your time. They want it now. 2. It's annoying for the interruptee, because you only have two options. Either you can pick up the phone now and force a hard context switch away what you were doing, or you ca…

I found it helps to set boundaries and in one instance make it clear that I do not appreciate being called out of the blue. I feel almost everyone understands that a texting before a call is polite these days. Clarification was only required once for a colleague who tried dialling me into a meeting I wasn’t party to, just to ask me some questions that could have been an IM. They were actually a little younger, and so…

>There’s a reason many of us struggle to read a book when we can watch some TV instead.

Most people don't watch TV to obtain information, yet at the same time, videos can convey information better than a book would thanks to audio and video. Quality audio and video material far surpass books when they augment the original text-only format. Shoddy video material is still preferred over shoddy writing for reasons beyond conveying information.

And that's the real issue. People are using bad writing and asynchronous communication skills as a cop-out to push more, not realizing their other communication skills are just as poor. Sure, the guy waving his warms during a presentation feels more humane, but how much does it really add one week after? You're stuck only with the notes he left, the notes you made (probably none) and your own memory probably muddied along the way. It's the same for meetings or any kind of call. Taking notes takes far longer if you ask the one conveying information to slow down so you can keep up. Most people are awful at communication in any form, and half of the problem comes from them trying to blame the medium or believing they are better using a different medium or it's flat-out the medium's fault. Newsflash: it's probably you, not the medium.

It's most astounding this has to be told to developers of all people. The field moves fast, new information is thrown out at rapid pace, the work is mostly mentally straining and you're expected to know a lot. Surely, that alone would make enough people question whether fast-paced, transient communication is a great fit. Writing is easier to point at people and say "this doesn't make sense" without the answer being another call.

Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#57

Post by Arainach »

a1371 wrote: post #21

I am always pretty concerned about a "hot mic" situation. Not because I might say something outrageous, but because perhaps I want to sing the lyric stuck in my head, or problem solve by taking to myself out loud. Managing to disconnect is already somewhat hard when you jump in and out of meetings on multiple platforms. All it takes is forgetting a button and you're broadcasting yourself by accident. As a user, that'…

Discord supports push-to-talk, which I highly recommend. I wish all voice/video chat technologies would prioritize that support. It avoids all accidental mic problems.

Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#58

Post by willcipriano »

colechristensen wrote: post #23
a1371 wrote: post #21

I am always pretty concerned about a "hot mic" situation. Not because I might say something outrageous, but because perhaps I want to sing the lyric stuck in my head, or problem solve by taking to myself out loud. Managing to disconnect is already somewhat hard when you jump in and out of meetings on multiple platforms. All it takes is forgetting a button and you're broadcasting yourself by accident. As a user, that'…

I once had a fight with my partner on a hot mic zoom call because everyone else was late by a half hour (let’s schedule a meeting after lunch, ope lunch is late) and zoom had a terrible UI. I checked many times to see if i was muted and always was… but not really.

Only use a mic/camera you control, tape over the rest. I use a wireless headset with a obvious red mute light to prevent mistakes like this. Don't trust the software to do it for you.

Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#59

Post by BlargMcLarg »

2easy wrote: post #52
qq66 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is only a small subset of organizations with a small subset of members tackling a small subset of problems that can achieve their goals fully asynchronously. For everything else, synchronous meetings will continue to be essential (and even those projects like Linux which seem to be fully asynchronous usually have one contributor who dominates the project and thus the communication overhead/latency problem isn't…

That's because people suck at communication - especially programmers. I lead remote teams and it is totally possible. The only essential "meetings" we have are retrospectives in which we discuss how to work/communicate with each other better. Good communication requires a lot of energy, bad communication requires meetings. We only have meetings unless absolutely necessary, not some laughable "pop ins"

>That's because people suck at communication - especially programmers

It's everyone. Not 'especially' programmers. Everyone. Flip the tables and expect the other side to adapt to the context instead, and we'd be calling management terrible at communication. Software development seems fairly unique in expecting developers to bridge the gap instead of management, when such expectations are not put on several other fields. Regardless of the mental strain put on those professions.

Heck, it's stunning we have so many customer-facing type jobs in software development only to expect developers to adapt. The heck you getting paid for if you're not actually a mediator between two different contexts like, you know, almost every other field?

Re: The Remote Pop-In (2021)

#60

Post by wsc981 »

colechristensen wrote: post #28
aar9 wrote: post #15

> If you're going to the restroom and will be AFK, you can join the restroom channel. You're in, but away. No one is actually wearing a headset on the toilet, it's just a fun way to feel like a real office. Interesting, I would never have expected anyone to feel the need of recreating this particular piece of office life in a remote setting.

Likewise, this is quite possibly the worst suggestion or best troll I’ve seen in months.

As an employer I’d like to know how much time my employees spend in the restroom each day, so I can only applaud this suggestion.
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