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The Bay Area's lost streetcars

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Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#71

Post by csours »

NoToP wrote: post #4
hadlock wrote: post #2

What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…

Hold up. Why would people who weren't willing to accept the taxes to maintain the street car willing to instead pay all the tax which subsidizes car infrastructure. This narrative doesn't quite add up because everything you said about why the street car existed and the commuter pattern that fed into the economics of developers applies equally well to why cars and suburb development exists. So once suburban homes were…

Haha. It's absolutely beautiful when someone asks the good question.

Related - why are people willing to subsidize someone else's road, but not willing to pay tolls -- or -- why are people willing to subsidize someone else's road, but not someone else's bus or subway fair.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#72

Post by Tade0 »

washbrain wrote: post #48
m0llusk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This always comes up, but is not accurate. Streetcars were never greatly loved. They were boiling hot in the summer, freezing in winter, the ride was jarring, and they were crowded with all manner of people. During the war maintenance was deferred to the point that at the end of the war most such lines needed to be rebuilt in order to stay in operation. Ripping them out to build roads for cars was not a conspiracy bu…

If only there had been solutions to heating and cooling, or ride comfort. Sadly, we as a species never got around to inventing heat pumps, springs, or cushioned seating. LOL. Cars were popular post war, so were suburbs. But surely GM had no incentive to make them so. I'm not saying they personally went out and sabotaged the streetcars, but they absolutely put their thumb on every scale they could.

> If only there had been solutions to heating and cooling, or ride comfort.

Effectiveness of heating and cooling is considerably diminished when a vehicle opens all its doors every few minutes.

The transport authority of the city I grew up in tried to solve this problem by setting the temperature to a cool 18°C - you could catch a cold from taking a longer trip via tram in the middle of summer.

As for ride comfort: there isn't much you can do against people drinking alcohol, having their phone on speaker or just urinating in the middle.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#73

Post by uoaei »

sammalloy wrote: post #12
melony wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that bad? Seems to be mostly just homeless people and drug users.

It’s a good question. Whenever this discussion comes up, my take on it is that people are concerned about being random victims. In other words, some aspects of this have to do with being in the wrong place at the wrong time and not feeling safe in your environment. I think it would be helpful to change the frame of the discussion and ask what we can do to make people more safe and comfortable. The BBC recently had a…

Another question worth asking is: what is the rate of randomly directed violent crime? I suspect it's small enough to be a rounding error vs violent crimes between people with pre-existing relationships.

Still, I agree with your point about the rhetorical focus. Simply reciting the statistics isn't going to alleviate anxieties.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#74

Post by Taniwha »

quesera wrote: post #34
Symbiote wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To someone from a place with modern, well-maintained light rail, I imagine Bay Area streetcars seem as quaint and outdated as old Ford cars in Cuba look to Americans. This is why San Francisco's streetcars are a tourist attraction. Few people go to Edinburgh just to ride on a modern tram, but some people visit Scotland and take a trip on a steam train (with or without the Harry Potter theme).

> This is why San Francisco's streetcars are a tourist attraction San Francisco's Cable Cars are a tourist transaction. They do also move thousands of officeworkers to downtown daily, though. But the streetcar system is much larger than the cable car system, and it is definitely not a tourist attraction.

I think that what confuses people is that they run historic street cars down the surface Market St for the tourists, and more modern street cars underground (under Market St, above ground in the suburbs) for the locals

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#75

Post by bobthepanda »

jahewson wrote: post #67
bobthepanda wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AC came to public transportation pretty late, mostly due to reliability issues; a broken AC in a car is a personal problem, but a broken AC in public transit is the operator's problem. It also didn't really help that the US made a "standard" streetcar that was such a lemon that they were starting to get scrapped only 11 years after entering service: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Standard_Light_Rail_Vehicle Most of…

> that wasn't an option in the less globalized mid-century. Oh it wasn’t less global, the Republican administration forced government entities to buy (or in this case build) American instead of European in an attempt to fight inflation.

They still do. Just now it's European and Japanese companies with American factories.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#76

Post by srinivasan »

Tade0 wrote: post #72
washbrain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there had been solutions to heating and cooling, or ride comfort. Sadly, we as a species never got around to inventing heat pumps, springs, or cushioned seating. LOL. Cars were popular post war, so were suburbs. But surely GM had no incentive to make them so. I'm not saying they personally went out and sabotaged the streetcars, but they absolutely put their thumb on every scale they could.

> If only there had been solutions to heating and cooling, or ride comfort. Effectiveness of heating and cooling is considerably diminished when a vehicle opens all its doors every few minutes. The transport authority of the city I grew up in tried to solve this problem by setting the temperature to a cool 18°C - you could catch a cold from taking a longer trip via tram in the middle of summer. As for ride comfort: t…

> there isn't much you can do against people drinking alcohol, having their phone on speaker or just urinating in the middle

Yes there is. You eject them from the vehicle.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#77

Post by rmason »

throw0101a wrote: post #25
NoToP wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hold up. Why would people who weren't willing to accept the taxes to maintain the street car willing to instead pay all the tax which subsidizes car infrastructure. This narrative doesn't quite add up because everything you said about why the street car existed and the commuter pattern that fed into the economics of developers applies equally well to why cars and suburb development exists. So once suburban homes were…

> […] why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? Suburbs are slowing falling into a state of disrepair, or at least more and more budget being taken away form other things: * https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfQUOHlAocY

why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for?

Have you ever been to Michigan? We have the 48th or 49th worst roads in America. They weren't like that when I was growing up or first got a drivers license in the sixties. Our auto insurance rates are higher and we have higher repairs than average.

We have the fifth or sixth highest gas taxes in the nation. Our Governor ran on a campaign slogan that she would "fix the damn roads". Her secret plan was to raise the gas taxes by forty cents which was rejected by the legislature. It's election year so a little bit of the COVID money is going to a small increase in road repair. How are Ohio and Indiana with lower state taxes able to keep their roads so good?

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#79

Post by JamesBarney »

bobthepanda wrote: post #66
ipaddr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a decent rate for you?

The city dump charges a minimum fee of $33 and that increases per ton. I junked a sectional for $50, I think?

But will the city dump pick up the sectional for you?

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#80

Post by washbrain »

Tade0 wrote: post #72
washbrain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there had been solutions to heating and cooling, or ride comfort. Sadly, we as a species never got around to inventing heat pumps, springs, or cushioned seating. LOL. Cars were popular post war, so were suburbs. But surely GM had no incentive to make them so. I'm not saying they personally went out and sabotaged the streetcars, but they absolutely put their thumb on every scale they could.

> If only there had been solutions to heating and cooling, or ride comfort. Effectiveness of heating and cooling is considerably diminished when a vehicle opens all its doors every few minutes. The transport authority of the city I grew up in tried to solve this problem by setting the temperature to a cool 18°C - you could catch a cold from taking a longer trip via tram in the middle of summer. As for ride comfort: t…

> there isn't much you can do against people drinking alcohol, having their phone on speaker or just urinating in the middle.

What? Nothing about public transit is different from libraries, restaurants, cabs, or any other public space. You wouldn't say, "well, you can't go book shopping because you know book stores - people just urinating in the middle!"

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