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Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

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Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#691
post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think yours is the ridiculous argument, how are homeless people relevant to this conversation?

They have more "freedom" than renters, right? They can pack up and head somewhere else whenever they want (as they're not bound by a lease), and they have absolutely zero responsibilities to anyone other than to obey the law. But they have the least personal financial freedom, is my point.

How do homeowners have more personal financial freedom than renters with their money in index funds?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#692

IMHO the land belongs to all of us, like the air, and the water. ie '(wo)man is born free' rather than 'born to pay rent to a private owner until such time as they can buy a freehold and pass on the condition'. That doesn't mean you can't have exclusive use of some part of it, how else would we encourage people to take care of the land and develop it. But you should continuously pay everyone else for it's exclusive u…

Do you believe this expands globally or only within sociopolitical boundaries as they mutate?

A very good question. People should be able to choose where they live (that does require a more equal world though), but on the other hand, communities should have some say in who their members are and what their rules are. I do see current fixed national boundaries as problematic.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#693
post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Pardon me if I don't have a lot of respect for economists and their crackpot theories (remember 2008? What about the current inflation generated by printing money like there is no to more?)] There are at least two problems with your logic: if you take all the land you can make the claim about the elasticity of supply, but not all land is created equal. Location, infrastructure, usage all factor into this. Taking the…

That's why it's a land value tax, on the unimproved value of the land. Not all land is created equal. Land that's out in the boonies, which nobody wants, is going to have a low value and hence low tax. Land in a downtown area, close to all the amenities, transit, parks, etc. - will have a high value and high tax. To answer all your questions: "If I buy a piece of the said land near a town and don't use it for anythin…

>> "What if the city builds infra near my land that makes it effective now to develop? Should I pay more tax now?"

> Yes, you should.

Doesn't this make NIMBYism even more tempting? I've got to be against any changes near my land, because it's going to increase my taxes and push me to move. In addition to not liking change in general.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#694
post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That logic doesn't follow. There are plenty of things that, in some cases, lack of them causes death; but are not human rights. There are people that cannot survive without a liver transplant; not everyone gets a liver transplant; some people die because they cannot get a liver transplant. A live transplant is not a basic human right. There are many things that, as a society, we should do our best to make sure everyo…

This is a normative fallacy. If people die because they didn't get healthcare, that doesn't mean they didn't deserve healthcare. I'd argue that everyone who needs a liver (which is not the same as a liver transplant ) has the right to one. > but they fact that you need them to survive doesn't define them as such Isn't that basically saying that surviving needn't be in a definition of 'human right'?

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#695
post #270

Food and shelter are basic human needs, but food is one of the oldest commodities, and the financialisation of food has real advantages in ensuring an adequate supply of food, stable prices, etc. There's extensive empircal and theoretcial evidence here. There are issues with housing markets in many areas of many countries. There may also be issues with the trend you've identified. But if so, you need to identify a mu…

> financialisation of food has real advantages in ensuring an adequate supply of food, stable prices, etc. There's extensive empircal and theoretcial evidence here. Would you mind sharing some links or expand on this? I have always had the impression that as a civilization we should be moving towards providing completely free resources to people (limited in quantity and only basic ones, like water, rice, potatoes).

There's like...three fairly seperate ideas here.

1) Is financialisation of food good?

2) Is welfare/a social safety net good?

3) Shoud weldfare be provided as cash or in-kind?

Hitting them each in order:

1) The finacialisation of food seems clearly good. There's two main mecahnisms for this - first, large producers and consumers of food can bring future prices forward, locking them in and avoiding volatility. A farmer trying to decide whether to plant wheat or soy will want to know what the relative scarcity of these crops will be at harvest time. Future markets let the farmer determine this (using price as a proxy), and lock that price in. Equally, large consumers (mills, food processors, etc.) can go through the same process, smoothing out consumption by adjusting the timing and mix of what they process, and again, by locking in future prices.

Second, speculators also participate. Contrary to what some people seem to think, speculation in food is also valuable. Consider, for a moment, the Russo-Ukrainian War. It had a big impact on global food supplies, and the best possible thing that could have happened is if, well before the war broke out, people had speculatively planted extra wheat. Without the financialisation of food, there's no incentive to do so, nor any mechanism to funnel resources towards it. On the other hand with futures markets, a hedge fund could, say, look at satellite immages showing Russian troop movements towards the Ukrainian border and bid up wheat futures. A farmer with no idea what's going on in Eastern Europe could see the rising futures price, sell some what futures, use the money to buy extra seeds and fuel, and use those to plant a few extra acres, thereby ensuring that there will be extra wheat if a war does happen but (importantly!) costing the hedge fund (not the farmer) if no war breaks out. And equally, note that the use of futures markets and hedging actually did help smooth out prices once the war did happen.

For a further example, for stupid historical reasons the only food commodity in the US with no futures markets are onions. The prices of onions are more volatile than other food commodities.

2) None of this, however, has any real bearing on whether a welfare system or social safety net is good; they clearly are. But while we might argue (and I'd agree) that the government of any functional country should ensure all residents have access to, at a minimum, basic food, that doesn't tell us much about the most efficient way to ensure there's enough basic food go around. Egypt is the largest net importer of wheat, and also heavily subsidises basic staples, to the tune of billions of dollars a year. But that just means Egypt - more than almost any other nation - benefits from the financialisation of food. There's no contradiction here!

3) Economists are pretty united that cash payments are more efficient than in kind benefits. Coming back to Egypt, around 2/3 of the population qualifies for deeply subsidised bread - 5 loaves of flatbread per day, for a cost of less than 1 US cent per loaf. That's excellent news for every poor Egyption who loves flatbread; less good for anyone that doesn't care for it. If instead of paying bakers to produce loaves below cost you gave the money directly to the recipients, they could use it to pay for food of their choice. (Some might also use it the money to gamble or buy drugs; I lean towards a less paternalistic role for government, but reasonable minds can disagree here.)

So yes, it's reasonable to expect that in a country like the US, there should not be a single person without access to, sure, enough water, rice, and potatoes to sustain life. But access could mean many things, and it seems unlikely that dropping a big bag of rice off at everyone's door every month is the best way to do that. A better option might just be making sure that there is no person so poor that the price of such staples might be unaffordable, and that can be ensured in many ways (eg, subsidies, vouchers, food stamps/SNAP, cash payments, UBI, etc.) But another way of ensuring people can afford food is making sure food is relatively abundant and food prices are relatively stable, and the financialisation of food is one way of helping bring that about.

One further point: It might be tempting to think that some resources (water is often mentioned) should be free at point of use for consumers. But note that all resources are finite, and one way of ensuring relative abundance is ensuring they aren't wasted. Free or unmetered resources will inevitably be wasted by some. So while it may be true that every human on earth should have access to sufficient safe drinking water (I think it is!), not only does it not follow that drinking water must be free, making drinking water free could make it harder to ensure everyone has access to drinking water.

The more important the goal, the more important it is that we choose the right mechanisms to achieve the goal.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#696
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Santiago de Chile or Cuba? I know that’s not the case in Chile for any of the central neighborhoods (Yungay, Brazil, Lastarria, Franklin, etc…) which I think are probably close to SF in terms of size. 325k CLP is about the lower end for a nice, small 2BR. You can get more rooms but the square footage is smaller. Las Condes/Vitacura goes up from there. You can buy a nice 2BR apartment for $175k USD though.

Haha yeah Santiago de Chile. Hey I bet you can get a great deal in Santiago de Cuba, way under $100, and it's notable enough people say "which Santiago" like you just did. Cuba has incredibly cheap rent, like Communism works, works mandatory unpaid overtime, in terms of cheap rent. So those are all beautiful quaint neighborhoods--myself I'm in Lastarria, but come on that's expensive. Yungay, little less. Barrio Brasi…

I've lived in both (Yungay and time in Maipú), looked at buying in 2019 Yungay/Ñuñoa (before October 18), and wives family is there, living in Maipú, Lastarria, etc... it's all kind of apples to orange though because the working class/middle class/upper class profiles are different than in SF. Maipú is probably the cheapest but of course you end up far away (unless you work in one of the places nearby, which is probably lower middle class to be honest).

Comparing via square footage, it's true - cheapest SF place is more expensive than most expensive Santiago place, but 3BR Parque Forestral penthouses (Even Barrio Italia) used to push $750k, for example, which you could get a 1BR place in SF for at the time probably too. If you go outside of SF city limits it gets much harder to compare.

Of course, these are just housing costs. Other things end up being more expensive in Chile in a different ways. We have kids, and even mediocre public schools like you find in the bay area are better than almost all private schools in Chile.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very simple. Any residence you don't live in as your only exempt residence for at least 2 years out of 5 is taxed at 100% pa. Any land with above median value is taxed at a progressive rate if you do live on it. Any commercial building you don't work in for a similar period is taxed at 20% You want to develop? Fine. Just have to make sure someone else owns or will own the land/strata before you start and charge them…

Most developers would not accept those terms. That's a proposal for predictable project losses. It's far less risk to own the project and land, seek institutional and similarly deep pocketed financing, then to suffer the fickle stinginess of a multitude of strata members. The developers who accept those terms will be looking to cut corners.

There are plenty of projects that are sold before they are started, and no reason the transaction would have to go the way you're claiming.

As long as at least one person is willing to assign their land claim to the project it could continue without that portion taxed, and acquiring or renting the claims would not have to be coupled to funding.

Modelling land as a fungible commodity that you're allowed to have as much as you want of is stupid and is just gifting a large portion of the productive output of society to those privileged enough to take on debt and those with the magic loan wand. There are plenty of other systems historically and currently that aren't as insane.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#698
post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That logic doesn't follow. There are plenty of things that, in some cases, lack of them causes death; but are not human rights. There are people that cannot survive without a liver transplant; not everyone gets a liver transplant; some people die because they cannot get a liver transplant. A live transplant is not a basic human right. There are many things that, as a society, we should do our best to make sure everyo…

This is a normative fallacy. If people die because they didn't get healthcare, that doesn't mean they didn't deserve healthcare. I'd argue that everyone who needs a liver (which is not the same as a liver transplant ) has the right to one. > but they fact that you need them to survive doesn't define them as such Isn't that basically saying that surviving needn't be in a definition of 'human right'?

> Isn't that basically saying that surviving needn't be in a definition of 'human right'?

Yes, because "surviving" isn't a human right. It's something we, as a society, should do our best to make sure everyone is able to do, but that's not the same as saying it's a human right. If it was, then "not having a heart attack" would be a human right, which is clearly ridiculous.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#699
post #382
post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

> . But you have to make it cheap. Deregulate construction, get rid of unions, prioritize developer rights over tenant or homeowner rights. What's insane is that we never consider the obvious alternative. GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO PAY FOR THE HOUSING THEY NEED. It's true that developers will not build if they can't make a profit. So we raise money through taxes and treat housing like an investment in our future. This Ameri…

> This American notion of "free market or nothing" has left us with unlivable cities of sprawling suburban houses because that's where the profit is. But that's not what's good for our long term future. It turns out you can't laissez-faire your way to good urban planning.

While I agree America needs to put in some serious work into urban planning, the current and recent past of the US urban planning is anything but laissez-faire: strict zoning, housing codes, permits for most major building actions, minimum parking requirements...

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have plenty of land. When I moved to Manhattan, I was shocked to see how many apartment buildings that are only a couple floors tall and don't have elevators. I assumed every building in Midtown would be at least 50 floors and house thousands of people. Counting the office space, which is completely unnecessary when people can work from home, even the densest neighborhood of America's most populated city has tons…

Cramming people together more tightly does not create more land.

But they flock to NYC. No one is "cramming" them there.
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