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Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

spiegel.de

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Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#81

Post by wongarsu »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #73
slfnflctd wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Storage issues might be solved The problem as I see it as that any '100% renewable' solution which could be ramped up relatively quickly would necessitate technology that doesn't exist yet. Of course there will be some progress in tech, but we have no way to predict exactly what it will be. It will also be extremely expensive simply due to the massive scale required, and there are numerous powerful & well funded gr…

> that doesn't exist yet. Batteries exist, and estimates of how many would be needed are around 50TWh. We have over 500GWh of annual battery production, and the doubling period for that capacity is under 18 months.

Also pumped hydro storage exists, and isn't too picky about where it can be placed (as opposed to hydro dams)

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#82

Post by gsatic »

cgb223 wrote: post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

Also if Russia stops the war tomorrow, is Germany not going to return to their old arrangements?

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#83

Post by looperhacks »

Brigand wrote: post #32
cgb223 wrote: post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

Aren’t renewables already more cost effective than nuclear? See for example here: https://energycentral.com/c/ec/comparing-costs-renewable-and... Storage issues might be solved before new nuclear plants go online at the current pace of progress. Perhaps a few years of gas until the renewable infrastructure is set up will suffice? At least the issue does not seem to be as clear cut as most people claim they are.

The search for storage has been ongoing since the sixties (in one form or another) and the current approach (started about ten years ago) is "planned" to lead to a decision 2031. Knowing how well such projects usually go in Germany and the massive pushback, especially from Bavaria in the last few weeks (not unfounded - one year before the exit-decision it was found out that our current storage was an absolute disaster), the storage site will probably be found when we don't need nuclear energy anymore (either because we found better solutions or it's too late anyway)

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#84

Post by cloutchaser »

tpmx wrote: post #15

And still the current plan is for Germany to shut down its few remaining nuclear reactors by the end of the year, while the company/companies maintaining them are saying they can keep them running? Please stop the shutdown, ffs, are you insane? Let's try to stop Germany from harming itself further via international pressure. Blame and shame. Call them idiots to their faces. Point fingers. They need to shocked. The ge…

No post body was provided.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#86

Post by 627467 »

Can't help but observe on how incapable are human societies to make long term critical rational decisions.

It never really made sense to say "we are going to phase out nuclear entirely" instead of "we'll focus on how to build safer, cheaper and more efficient nuclear".

The decision to go off nuclear was capricious and it seems that the speed with which sentiment is changing only proves this.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#87

Post by whimsicalism »

blibble wrote: post #70
Gwypaas wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. EU is founded on integrating the belligerents of WW2 close enough that it would be unthinkable to happen again. The same method, which at least has worked previously, was tri…

> Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. > The same method, which at least has worked previously it was a common theory prior to WW1 breaking out, then WW1 broke out and falsified it and now Russia has falsified this theory again (the threat of the Soviet Union plus nuclear deterrence prevented war in Europe, not the EU)

Economic interdependence before WW1 wasn't even close to how much it is today.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#88

Post by looperhacks »

tpmx wrote: post #15

And still the current plan is for Germany to shut down its few remaining nuclear reactors by the end of the year, while the company/companies maintaining them are saying they can keep them running? Please stop the shutdown, ffs, are you insane? Let's try to stop Germany from harming itself further via international pressure. Blame and shame. Call them idiots to their faces. Point fingers. They need to shocked. The ge…

If you are referring to the latest discussion about a specific plant (Isar 2), the company running the plant (e.on) wants to shut it down. The discussion came up because the TÜV Süd (internationally mostly known for certifying that dam in Brazil one year before it killed 270 people because it was not safe and broke) certified that the plant is safe, but pretty much everyone involved claimed that the certificate is bogus (and the public image of the TÜV Süd is pretty bad anyway).

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#89

Post by rdtsc »

Gwypaas wrote: post #60
cgb223 wrote: post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

> Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. EU is founded on integrating the belligerents of WW2 close enough that it would be unthinkable to happen again. The same method, which at least has worked previously, was tri…

> Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence.

It’s a bit unilateral. As long as Russia can save enough money or have other buyers for its gas and oil it can just shut the supply in the middle of winter. Germans can of course refuse to export their products to Russia but people freezing in the middle of winter is a bit more dire than not being able to buy the latest Mercedes.

So, like other sibling comment pointed out, it turned more into dependency than co-dependency.

I could see, in the previous years, maybe the Germans wanted to move way from NATO and integrate with Russia but seeing Russian behavior since the Chechnya war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1999%E2%80... I wonder if anyone warned the Germans not to get in bed with the Russians. That was 20 years ago.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#90

Post by Mordisquitos »

Gwypaas wrote: post #60
cgb223 wrote: post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

> Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? Because the only method shown to prevent war in Europe is co-dependence. EU is founded on integrating the belligerents of WW2 close enough that it would be unthinkable to happen again. The same method, which at least has worked previously, was tri…

I would argue that is only half-correct as an argument (not whether the German people believe it to be true or not).

The EU was of course promoted primarily to avoid the repetition of the World Wars, and it is indeed succeeding at it within its scope, and has also so far been a great influence outside of it as well.

However, it is a mistake to believe that economic interdependence is the reason for its success, or that interdependence is a disincentive for war. The period from the late 19th century was highly globalised, with much international free trade, and increasingly so up until the 1910s. However, that didn't stop war breaking out between wealthy military powers over nationalistic grudges, and neither would it in the 2020s.

I am not knowledgeable enough to fully understand how the EU has broken the cycle of war between European nations, but it has been something much more profound than economic interdependence. Germany was probably right in not wanting to keep close relations with Russia, especially before 2008/2014, but shot itself in the foot by naïvely assuming that co-dependence—or rather, German dependence—would in any way stop Putin's regime from aggressive expansionism.

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