Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#571

Post by originalvichy » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

There definitely is a problem but I believe this sites’ demographics won’t let you find many voices towards taking measures that limit profit-seeking.

Entire sectors like healthcare and childcare are being gutted by prohibitive living costs associated with living in a city or close enough to it. The people of the cities don’t have enough essential workers anymore due to them being priced out.

Even private sector employers have to pay the price for the real estate sector cannibalizing economic growth and pushing corps to increase salaries (and the salaries increasingly just falling into the hands of real estate instead of businesses).

Productive business and economic growth is being captured by the non-productive housing sector and land-ownership class.

If taxes on the wealthy would have increased as fast and as comparatively much as rent has for the working classes then the wealthy would be at the barricades.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#572

Post by feet » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #541

feet wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is false, what Nestlé does is literally the definition of commodification Commodification definition: the act or fact of turning something into an item that can be bought and sold: The commodification of water means that access is available only to those who can pay. > https://www.dictionary.com/browse/commodification Nobody mentioned the US. Nestlé does this in various other countries. > https://www.t…

Nestle sells portable bottles. That's what differentiates their product from the tap.

They sell bottles filled with water, not everyone has access to tap water and Nestlé captures so much of a water source that locals don't have access to the freely available water that they did before.

Are you not aware that fresh water from wells depletes sources? The water table is limited.

You seem to be intentionally twisting the scenario in a disingenuous manner. Nestlé is selling water that was once free to a populace.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#573

Post by carom » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

badtension wrote: post #235

thepasswordis wrote: post #132

>a basic human right You do not have a basic human right to the labor of the people who build and maintain these houses. This is where this entire discussion collapses for me. Yes, I agree there needs to be more access to housing. And it’s frustrating to me that our government is too inept to simply provide it. For instance: we have committed to about 45 Billion to Ukraine. At a cost of $100k/unit (achievable at scal…

I have a sense of overdramatization here. Nobody is holding anyone at gunpoint, we just want to have a safer future with regards to our basic needs. Let's agree that there is a cost to building a house and someone has to pay for it, that's fair. What's not fair is making more and more, larger and larger luxury homes, turning other into AirBnBs and even keeping some empty (since it's "an investment") effectively makin…

Remove zoning restrictions. I will build multi unit housing in my lifetime. I would do it sooner but it is expensive and permitting is hard. There are so many barriers that protect single family homes.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#574

Post by polio » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

welshwelsh wrote: post #148

throwfh80h82 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can make more food but god ain't making any more land.

We have plenty of land. When I moved to Manhattan, I was shocked to see how many apartment buildings that are only a couple floors tall and don't have elevators. I assumed every building in Midtown would be at least 50 floors and house thousands of people. Counting the office space, which is completely unnecessary when people can work from home, even the densest neighborhood of America's most populated city has tons…

There are many reasons why not every building in Manhattan is 50 storeys. The most obvious one is that each neighborhood's infrastructure imposes limits on the density of the block. Other considerations are public transit, water main, and school capacity. So the effective amount of "land" today, is closer to what exists today, relative to a block of residential 50-storey skyscrapers.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#575

Post by tristor » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

usgroup wrote: post #482

thepasswordis wrote: post #132

>a basic human right You do not have a basic human right to the labor of the people who build and maintain these houses. This is where this entire discussion collapses for me. Yes, I agree there needs to be more access to housing. And it’s frustrating to me that our government is too inept to simply provide it. For instance: we have committed to about 45 Billion to Ukraine. At a cost of $100k/unit (achievable at scal…

> You do not have a basic human right to the labor of the people who build and maintain these houses. Food and security also require other peoples labour.

And are also not basic human rights.

A basic human right that is a corollary to security is the right to self-defense. You cannot obligate other's labor to provide your security, but you can provide your own security and that is your right.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#576

Post by Ccecil » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

I have been thinking about this for a while...I cannot think of a way for it to be possible to profit from housing without causing poverty.

People say a lot of things as fixes:

1) Build more: this only works if they are affordable to the people who "need" them...not just the same investors who are already controlling the market.

2) Higher density: We had a highrise completed last year in my town. There are only 6 full time residents. The rest is investment/vacation rentals. Now another is being built. Meanwhile, affordable houses are being razed in order to leave the lots vacant or develop them into unaffordable housing.

3) Move to where nobody is: I live in Idaho. We used to be that state. Now we just have a market where you are required to make 2-3x what the average renter makes in order to purchase (assuming you can compete with the cash investment buyers). There are very few high paying jobs...and rents are increasing due to people buying investment properties in the middle of a bubble.

I would love to have a solution. The issue is greed. How many warning stories do we have about greed through history? Largely ignored...too much FOMO being exploited.

Currently, our town has companies shutting down (tons of unaffordable commercial/industrial rentals), restaurants closing multiple nights a week due to lack of staff, increasing homeless population in the region, but most importantly...the gap between "classes" is widening and the hatred is growing. Maybe that was the point the whole time.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#577

Post by shakes_mcjunkie » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

raintrees wrote: post #548

Our property business (side hustle) provides nice places for people to live, where they do not have to worry about the larger maintenance and upkeep that comes with all property, not to mention the financing arrangements now required due to how our economy has (d)evolved. I see it kind of like a what friend of mine, who was a pretty decent software engineer, said about going out on his own, rather than working for ot…

Housing much more directly impacts individuals than software is likely to do in most cases. What makes being a landlord unethical by default, IMO, is you're participating in the commodification of one of the most basic human needs. Inevitably, even the most ethical landlord will, at the end of the day, have to make a decision based on their own economics which can easily cause a highly negative externality to the tenant, one the landlord is not required to deal with.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#578

Post by carom » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #154

thepasswordis wrote: post #132

>a basic human right You do not have a basic human right to the labor of the people who build and maintain these houses. This is where this entire discussion collapses for me. Yes, I agree there needs to be more access to housing. And it’s frustrating to me that our government is too inept to simply provide it. For instance: we have committed to about 45 Billion to Ukraine. At a cost of $100k/unit (achievable at scal…

The actual cost of construction/materials of the house itself makes a negligible part of real estate speculation. A huge chunk of properties are bought with the expectation that they will not last more than a few decades. We already face the scenario where people have to commute for over an hour each way to work in a city where they cannot afford to live. Let's not pretend that cost of constructing that shitty house…

>The actual cost of construction/materials of the house itself makes a negligible part of real estate speculation.

$250/sqft, want to loan me 3 million? It will last more than a few decades.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#579

Post by s1artibartfast » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #530

s1artibartfast wrote: post #381

>more people are looking at real estate as a financial tool, not a basic human right to have a roof over one's head? When was this ever the case? I can't think of a time in human history where housing was seen as a human right

I want to use your question as a jumping off point to talk out some thoughts I've been having in this area. > When was [housing as a human right] ever the case? North and South America before the coming of the Europeans. Let's start in the far North. Here's the classic scene from "Nanook of the North" where Nanook builds an igloo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F0G3IZA6OI It takes two hours to make an overnight she…

This is a noble savage error. Shelter was still a valued commodity and not guaranteed human right. Tribes fought over land, and dwellings required labor. They often had many people to a dwelling because of this specifically.

If you wanted to build an igloo or adobe building today, the land is cheap as are the materials. No one is interested in doing this exactly because the conditions would be considered economic destitution.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#580

Post by ItsMonkk » Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

tharkun__ wrote: post #564

ItsMonkk wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is that places that are zoned lower are worth less, and places that are zoned higher are worth more. That's only true in the existing paradigm. What would be true in the new paradigm is that places would only allowed to be zoned lower if people are willing to pay for that exclusive access. It's not just industrial areas, all higher zoned areas would be cheaper than lower zoned areas. Land Value Tax ince…

That is not my argument at all. In fact the residential zoned houses at the edge of the industrial zone are worth less potentially than the industrial piece of land on that edge. (maybe not, because residential neighbors will get complainy ;)) I am saying that I don't see how a land value tax does what you propose. I had no idea what that even was until I read these posts and looked it up. I don't see what you mean b…

The value of the land is based on

1. The inherit value of the land - rivers, gold or oil being key examples.

2. The nearby infrastructure

3. The zoning policies

4. The community and commercial services

If there is land zoned for another NYC, with the infrastructure of NYC, including the excellent port access, it would very quickly become worth what NYC is worth as people showed up. We see this with the pop-up cities in China after they reach completion. Though no doubt some will stay in ghost status forever.

It is up to the local government to do what they can to make the most of their land, just as much as it is up to the landowner of an individual parcel to do what they can to make the most of their land. The city is incentivized to zone the area so that it is valued highest. If they do a poor job of that, that is on them.