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Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

spiegel.de

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Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#41

Post by osigurdson »

ALittleLight wrote: post #29
osigurdson wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not German, but I suspect memories of Fukushima and Chernobyl could be weighing on the minds of some. Perhaps this is an irrational concern but people are not necessarily rational - particularly when randomly polled on topics they know little about.

Perhaps irrational? It's certainly irrational. Nuclear is among the absolute safest methods of energy production. Looking at Wikipedia one person died and sixteen were injured at Fukushima. That risk should dictate energy policy? "Irrational" is being kind.

When you think “power plant disaster”, what power plant instantly comes to mind? It’s a powerful “brand” that is quite difficult to displace in people’s minds. That is the problem to solve.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#42

Post by RF_Savage »

FourthProtocol wrote: post #22
ren_engineer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because their anti-nuclear environmental groups were actually being funded by Russia behind the scenes. And there are still fools who think that economic integration somehow prevents wars, which was shown to be false after WWI. These people said if Europe just paid a bunch of money for Russian energy they'd obviously never attack them. See what's happening with China and the US as more proof that handing over your ec…

Indeed so. I've been following nuclear in Germany ever since those railroad protests when they tried to transport nuclear waste from somewhere to somewhere else which I thought was crazy (the protests). The part I felt had merit is that none of Europe's lofty solutions to safely storing/disposing of the waste output ever came to anything. I believe until this day that industry is still trying to work out how to dig 3…

Onkalo in Finland is not 30km deep, which none have achieved anywhere.

But Onkalo is one of the few actually built long term nuclear waste storage locations anywhere.

It is for domestic nuclear waste only. There is no desire to become the international dumping ground for nuclear waste.

Tbh I believe the waste should be reprosessed as fuel and burnt in reactors instead of burial.

But non-proliferation things make that impossible.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#43

Post by formerly_proven »

dark-star wrote: post #36
cgb223 wrote: post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

Because the Green Party (which was founded as direct result of the Chernobyl desaster) has been pushing their irrational agenda against nuclear power. They deliberately ignored any scientific arguments that were even slightly in favor of nuclear. The Greens have brought some very necessary ecological improvements that would otherwise not have happened (probably), but their continuous crusade against anything nuclear,…

The Greens predate Chernobyl by about a decade and came from the anti-nuke/war/nuclear environmentalists groups, but the dogmatic anti-war part was dropped by the end of the 90s (Kosovo). Since then the Greens have been somewhat "hawkish" (to borrow an US term) on illiberal states and such.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#44

Post by balentio »

Cwizard wrote: post #37
osigurdson wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not German, but I suspect memories of Fukushima and Chernobyl could be weighing on the minds of some. Perhaps this is an irrational concern but people are not necessarily rational - particularly when randomly polled on topics they know little about.

What I don’t understand is how those two incidents are even relevant. Chernobyl happened because of a faulty design + mismanagement and Fukushima was located on a region prone to earthquakes/tsunami’s caused by earthquakes. The factors do not really apply to Germany. And even if it did, the deaths caused by those accidents were quite low. Meanwhile coal pollution is killing people by the thousands but this is somehow…

> What I don’t understand is how those two incidents are even relevant. Chernobyl happened because of a faulty design + mismanagement and Fukushima was located on a region prone to earthquakes/tsunami’s caused by earthquakes.

To use an old phrase, shit happens. When it happens where a Nuclear Power Plant is, the happening continues for a very, very long time. That kind of liability is not worth the risk and of course there are other power solutions than the fossil/fuel nuclear divide.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#45

Post by [deleted] »

FourthProtocol wrote: post #22
ren_engineer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because their anti-nuclear environmental groups were actually being funded by Russia behind the scenes. And there are still fools who think that economic integration somehow prevents wars, which was shown to be false after WWI. These people said if Europe just paid a bunch of money for Russian energy they'd obviously never attack them. See what's happening with China and the US as more proof that handing over your ec…

Indeed so. I've been following nuclear in Germany ever since those railroad protests when they tried to transport nuclear waste from somewhere to somewhere else which I thought was crazy (the protests). The part I felt had merit is that none of Europe's lofty solutions to safely storing/disposing of the waste output ever came to anything. I believe until this day that industry is still trying to work out how to dig 3…

[deleted]

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#46

Post by 323 »

_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #25
ren_engineer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because their anti-nuclear environmental groups were actually being funded by Russia behind the scenes. And there are still fools who think that economic integration somehow prevents wars, which was shown to be false after WWI. These people said if Europe just paid a bunch of money for Russian energy they'd obviously never attack them. See what's happening with China and the US as more proof that handing over your ec…

> because their anti-nuclear environmental groups were actually being funded by Russia behind the scenes. I am German and very pro nuclear, but this is conspiracy bs. And why make such a grand claim without a single source?

> Nunes, as chairman of the House Intelligence Committee: Russia is secretly funding the environmental movement, particularly in Germany, to help pressure the closure of nuclear power plants.

https://www.eenews.net/articles/devin-nunes-claims-russia-is...

Dominique Reynié: "We found that Gazprom funded environmental NGOs that provided ministers to various governments, such as Belgium, which then advocated abandoning nuclear power".

https://twitter.com/ziontree/status/1497998920739274757

> For instance, the Soviets used front organizations to influence the anti-nuclear movement, the initiative that most visibly put Western leadership on the defensive. West German Interior Ministry and FBI reports concluded that Soviet-linked organizations were successfully swaying local peace movement initiatives to conform to Moscow’s positions

https://warontherocks.com/2017/09/russian-active-measures-in...

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#47

Post by RF_Savage »

AnonCoward42 wrote: post #34
cgb223 wrote: post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

I am not sure anymore if we can agree on this, but current fission implementations are an added threat - and not a small one - to any climate change that occurs. In addition: To this day, we do not have a single final depot for nuclear waste. Now, that is the anti-nuclear side of things, however CO2 is also a problem which we also don't want and this leads to the shutdown of the other potential sources of energy and…

Onkalo exists :)

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#48

Post by _fizz_buzz_ »

ren_engineer wrote: post #26
Ygg2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're going to need some citation on that Russia connection.

>“Ninety-nine per cent of the text of the articles of association is about climate and environmental protection, but 99 per cent of the money comes directly from Nord Stream II AG, which belongs to Gazprom.” >“It’s quite a curious foundation. It is a puppet construction,” said Sascha Müller-Kraenner, head of Environmental Action Germany, a green charity, which is challenging the legality of the organisation both in t…

True that foundation exists, and is heavily criticized by other German environmental organizations in Germany as even this article points out. Also it was founded after the nuclear exit was decided. You are falling for the trap where you know a little bit about a subject but draw the wrong conclusions from it.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#49

Post by cinntaile »

WalterBright wrote: post #10

> The results are astounding all around Faced with burning wood to keep warm in winter, the results are entirely predictable.

Most households burn gas at home for heating. Sure if there is no gas, you can use an electrical heater but that won't be cheap.

Re: Germany sees shift in sentiment toward atomic energy

#50

Post by ed_balls »

cgb223 wrote: post #6

Can any Germans on HN explain why Germany finds it preferable to give up their energy independence in nuclear and instead buy it from their potential adversary in Russia? What possible advantages are there to buying the resource that literally keeps the lights on from a country that you have conflicts with?

Because of geopolitics, the rest is just hypocrisy. Germany and France wanted to build the Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok with help from Russia. That new Europe would became a 3rd power (after US and China) It's a good match. They can get cheap resources from Russia, manufacturing can be move from China to Siberia where pollution is not a big problem. Russia would balance China, so no need for massive military spending. USA could be pushed out of Europe.

It would guarantee future for Russia. Right now 50% of Russian budged is from carbohydrates. Due to fracking and decarbonisation it won't be profitable to mine in Russia in 15 years[1]. Without that income, states like Chechnya, are gonna try to leave the federation.

It's good for China as well, since USA sanctions would not be that effective.

The Atlantic world doesn't want the 3rd power (hence USA and UK are helping a lot in Ukraine) as well as Central European countries (Poland, Ukraine, Baltic states etc.) The table that shows military aid by GDP is an eye opener.

[1] Gas and oil from Ukrainian shores (Crimea) could speed it up.

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