Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

news.ycombinator.com

291–300 of 764 posts

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#291
post #228
post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

You are right that throwing money at it isn't a solution. But corporations should not own residencial housing and no one should be allowed to sell propery at a meaningful profit if they own multiple properties. The government should excecise it's power of taxation to take the profits of an investment housing sell (as defined above: multiple property owner selling at profit) with something like a 95% tax on profit and…

I agree, except E.G. retired 'snowbirds' really love a stable climate and might have two homes in different climate zones. There's also the case where someone is selling one home and moving into another.

The tax break should be made if someone's primary residence is occupied for at least 35% of a tax year. A number intentionally just a tiny bit bigger than one third, so the break can only apply to a maximum of two homes, but low enough to be flexible.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#292
post #228
post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

You are right that throwing money at it isn't a solution. But corporations should not own residencial housing and no one should be allowed to sell propery at a meaningful profit if they own multiple properties. The government should excecise it's power of taxation to take the profits of an investment housing sell (as defined above: multiple property owner selling at profit) with something like a 95% tax on profit and…

Incentivizing individual home ownership I get, but killing the home flipping market, I don’t. Personality, I don’t want to renovate an out of date home, I just want to move in and done with it. Taxing flippers to death doesn’t seem progressive to me.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#293
I 100% find it unethical and I think it's a parasitical thing to be working on.

I'm living in a rural mountain village that has become a little more trendy since remote work became a thing. It was a sleepy relaxed place comprised mostly of kind people.

Of course a wealth property mogul has snaked his way into the village after seeing an opportunity and now hunts down houses, out pricing local people and young families if possible and then sells the houses to the hedge fund he is working for, or buys them with his own personal wealth with plans to sell it later on at a much higher price than he paid for it to another wealth friend who doesn't even live in the same country.

This guy is actually hoping that his money will also drive up prices after other villagers see they could get more money (potentially) if they'd sell to him. Obviously people are free to choose who they sell to. But what a thing to try do? Essentially encourage the destruction of a community by waving money around. He will even interject on previously arranged deals and offer double the money hoping others can't pay and tempts the seller to take his money.

None of this behavior adds value to the community, it tears it apart, they just take. They use money to bully and create stress for everyone who genuinely would like to live here or start a business. Robbing people the chance to live a relaxed way of life and raise a family without too much financial pressure.

I talk with the guy and funnily enough he told me he'd occasionally "gift a house to a local family" rather than some other rich asshole so he looks like a nice guy and presumably older people fall for his cons and sell their places to him. I've also heard him tell me he has had death threats made against him, so yeah, this is what his behavior drives people too.

My only hope is, people, on average choose community over money, but in the world we live in with inflation etc, I can't blame them if they feel pressured to sell to the highest bidder.

I want finish this rant by saying this, everyone else in this community adds value by farming, running stores, running schools, being doctors, mechanics etc. This person adds nothing, he only takes for his own gain. Encourages others to come in and run businesses her purchased at a cheaper price.

He uses the very things people work hard to produce and which make the village a beautiful place, to sell it to other people. Similar to how Uber and Lyft make money out of the roads people pay for through taxes. It's leeching.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#294
post #195
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people who own more valuable land benefit proportionally more from state services.

Sure, and you can say the same for sports cars, stocks, cell phones, yachts, and basically anything that can be bought and sold.

You aren't permanently consuming a portion of the most important finite resource in a state (the land) by buying a cell phone or a sports car. You're certainly taking advantage of public resources and services on a global scale with those other purchases, which I also think is worth addressing. But in the case of land ownership the correlation is very local and easy to draw.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#295
To all the people saying 'where would the renters go?' - rental units don't have to be supplied by for-profit organizations. We could adapt the co-op system (or have it set up by the local gov i.e. council housing).

If anyone is / would like to work on something to further these ideas about definancializing housing please comment.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#296
post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

I would start by making property taxes substantially higher for non-owner-occupied property. If you are rent-seeking rather than residing on the property you should pay way more, maybe 4x or higher, in taxes. Housing prices would crash and that would be the point; but everyone who owns property would be against it because they don't want to see their assets drop in value. The counter-argument people make is "that wou…

Wouldn't that mostly just increase the rents? I.e. the landlords can offload the extra tax to their clients (renters).

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, property tax is based on the current value, which in theory includes all development. "In theory" because in California there are strategies for doing renovations without triggering a reassessment.

So property taxes are even higher than land value taxes? Because they included land plus development.

Property taxes dissuade development, because the higher the value of that specific property the higher the tax.

Land value taxes encourage development because the tax is levied on the _unimproved_ value of the land, so you're incentivised to maximize the value of the improvements of the property.

At least that's the theory.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#298
Real estate has always been commodified. But now there are more people with access to it than ever before. See home ownerships rates in the census [1].

There are real issues around the costs of developing. Building is insanely difficult and expensive now. There's tons of regulation around it increasing the cost, and ironically the labor movement makes it way more expensive in terms of labor (and materials... which also require labor to produce). Then you've got endless numbers of regressive NIMBYs masquerading as progressives who fight development with political means (via zoning), legal means (via lawsuits), and emotional means (via attacking it as gentrification). You face people like professors who decry gentrification, despite having moved into the area, owning multiple properties, acting as a landlord, and then collecting bogus evidence to prevent turning a private dog park into housing [2].

In Philly, you can either spend months or years getting a housing project approved and bribe council people like Darrell Clarke (who stays in office via appealing to NIMBYs and restricting development in blighted areas [3]), or you can build single family homes "by right" (according to existing zoning). Which means single family homes instead of high density or mixed use structures.

Even if land were free, building would still cause housing to be very expensive. Average cost to build a house in Philadelphia (cheap compared to other big US cities) is 300k. There are many places where you can get free land [4] but it turns out people want to live in a limited number of places generally.

1. https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial/tables/ti...

2. https://billypenn.com/2021/03/29/west-philly-poop-study-feca...

3. https://whyy.org/articles/philly-council-limits-development-...

4. https://www.wideopencountry.com/free-land-in-the-us/

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#299
post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

I would start by making property taxes substantially higher for non-owner-occupied property. If you are rent-seeking rather than residing on the property you should pay way more, maybe 4x or higher, in taxes. Housing prices would crash and that would be the point; but everyone who owns property would be against it because they don't want to see their assets drop in value. The counter-argument people make is "that wou…

It's counter-intuitive but the majority of housing has to be non-owner-occupied for prices to fall.

>making property taxes substantially higher for non-owner-occupied property.

>but everyone who owns property would be against it because they don't want to see their assets drop in value.

After the initial dip, prices will rise again because residents will vote out every city government that tries to implement zoning that doesn't increase the value of their property.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do not have a basic human right to the labor of the people who build and maintain these houses. But you should have the right to live under a government who provide this for you. It's like saying that you don't have a basic human right to have that doctor help you – no you don't, but you do have a right to have a doctor help you. Safe housing is a human right, as is healthcare, as is food and water, because the…

Why do you have a right to having a doctor help you? What if he doesn’t want to help you? Can the government force him to?

If you don't want to treat all the sorts of people in a population, don't go into a field of public service. Period.

I don't care if you don't want to help someone because you think being trans is wrong. You still have to treat them if you are working in an ER, if you are a dermatologist, if you are basically any doctor. In a few cases, you might be able to refer the person to another doctor, if it is reasonable (as readily understood by laypeople), not urgent, and you (personally) pay any additional costs the patient might incur, including lost wages if they need to take another day off work, differences in insurance cost, and travel costs.

If you don't want to treat everyone, find another line of work. And yes, I think the same about other folks in public facing jobs. If you cannot help folks that are different than you, don't work retail. Don't be an accountant or lawyer the general public can hire. Policework, firefighting, and government jobs that deal with the general public would be off limits.

And yes, I think the government should force you to do this. They already do this in a lesser manner, though fair housing laws and fair labour acts and things like this. No, these aren't perfect, but nothing is - an imperfect fix that improves things is better than none at all, after all.

Post reply on HN