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Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

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Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#231

Post by ghaff »

unlikelymordant wrote: post #194
ramesh31 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I definitely do. It's something that turns a basic necessity into a speculative asset, with a price distorted by the money poured into it The 30 year mortgage is one of the greatest inventions in the history of mankind. Being able to swing hundreds of thousands of dollars of margin on a near-zero-down investment that requires nothing more than proof of income and has a manageable monthly payment is the single most p…

I disagree somewhat. I think the 30 year mortgage has pushed prices up much higher than they would have been, because of the leverage, and people only look at the monthly repayment. The fact that it has led to intergenerational wealth (among the rich who can afford houses) is a direct side effect of the fact that houses are so expensive. It seems like saying it has generated wealth is begging the question.

>people only look at the monthly repayment

That's somewhat understandable given that the alternative is pretty much writing a monthly rent check. In that respect, it's a bit different to my mind than an auto loan. (Maybe if you compare it to a lease.)

If you didn't have 30 year fixed mortgages in the US, property values might indeed drop somewhat. But it would mostly advantage people who had access to other capital. People who can't afford houses in expensive areas now mostly still wouldn't be able to.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#232

Post by nemo44x »

tstrimple wrote: post #30
drstewart wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a case of negative rights versus positive rights https://alabamapolicy.org/research/understanding-the-differe...

That’s just the latest justification for the lack of critical thinking around what actually constitutes a right. Those “negative vs positive” rights people don’t seem to have any problem with the “right to an attorney, if you cannot afford one then one will be provided for you”. It’s always been an incredibly disingenuous argument.

It’s not a human right to have an attorney. It’s done by the government to legitimize its courts. It’s difficult to justify the use of force (court system and associated outcomes) if those you accuse of violating the state do not have the ability to competently defend themselves from the accusations.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#233

Post by UncleEntity »

Victerius wrote: post #137
roenxi wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's something that turns a basic necessity into a speculative asset I see some broad parallels in this line of rhetoric to "Zeus brings misfortune because people are impious vs good fortune when they are worthy". It presumes a difference and a drive that is not there. All assets are both speculative and non-speculative at all times. There are no assets that cannot be bought speculatively and a house is always goin…

> There are problems in the housing market, but they are not to be found by worrying about people acting speculatively. People are responding to the real problem, whatever it is We should do both. Build more housing and crack down on speculators.

> We should do both. Build more housing and crack down on speculators.

By this reasoning nobody could own multi-family properties because that would be considered speculation.

Because the only difference is this involves single family homes which are going to be rented out, an act that I’ve never heard called speculation. Of all the predatory tactics Silicon Valley gets up to (hello Uber) this isn’t one of them IMHO.

I’m not sure where people think the houses that get rented out come from but I can guarantee that it isn’t people who are running a charity to provide housing to needy families. They invest capital in real estate with the sole intention of seeking a return on said investment.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#234

Post by missedthecue »

paxys wrote: post #154
thepasswordis wrote: post #132

>a basic human right You do not have a basic human right to the labor of the people who build and maintain these houses. This is where this entire discussion collapses for me. Yes, I agree there needs to be more access to housing. And it’s frustrating to me that our government is too inept to simply provide it. For instance: we have committed to about 45 Billion to Ukraine. At a cost of $100k/unit (achievable at scal…

The actual cost of construction/materials of the house itself makes a negligible part of real estate speculation. A huge chunk of properties are bought with the expectation that they will not last more than a few decades. We already face the scenario where people have to commute for over an hour each way to work in a city where they cannot afford to live. Let's not pretend that cost of constructing that shitty house…

"The actual cost of construction/materials of the house itself makes a negligible part of real estate speculation"

We may have different definitions of "negligible"...

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#235

Post by badtension »

thepasswordis wrote: post #132

>a basic human right You do not have a basic human right to the labor of the people who build and maintain these houses. This is where this entire discussion collapses for me. Yes, I agree there needs to be more access to housing. And it’s frustrating to me that our government is too inept to simply provide it. For instance: we have committed to about 45 Billion to Ukraine. At a cost of $100k/unit (achievable at scal…

I have a sense of overdramatization here. Nobody is holding anyone at gunpoint, we just want to have a safer future with regards to our basic needs.

Let's agree that there is a cost to building a house and someone has to pay for it, that's fair. What's not fair is making more and more, larger and larger luxury homes, turning other into AirBnBs and even keeping some empty (since it's "an investment") effectively making it harder for common people to have a place to live.

I don't want to be scared that if I get sick for a week I won't be able to pay my rent and will have to move... who knows where. I know there are people living in such fear while a multitude of homes stay empty.

In principle this boils down to private property rights and conservative way of thinking about society vs. making policies that would drive the standard of living up starting from the ones most in need. Both approaches are valid, they differ in the amount of suffering for the bottom 50%.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#236

Post by jollyllama »

It's not so much the commoditization as the financialization. There are deeper assumptions about Western models of financial capitalism which I would question. IMO Free markets are ok for commodities and goods, but free markets for credit are disastrous. There is a reason debt jubilees were common throughout history.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#237

Post by _8j50 »

saddlerustle wrote: post #215
_8j50 wrote: post #201

Unethical? Should be disallowed period. I do strongly believe that once a propery is yours what you do with it is your concern and nobody else's. However, the business practice of purchasing properties to profit from selling it again in the future should not be allowed. So, what should happen is the government should not allow the transfer of ownership when the seller has a) multiple properties and b) is selling a pr…

If companies can't own houses, and people can't own more than their primary residence, where should renters live?

People can own multiple residencies, they just can't sell them at more than 3-5% profit. Corporations can't own residencial buildings if they are single family units but for multi-family properties, so long as it is being offered as rent/lease/purchase that should of course be allowed. I was focusing more on single family units but you are right to highlight that.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#238

Post by paulryanrogers »

xkcd1963 wrote: post #180
missedthecue wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have long supported the privatization and commiditization of water. It should be sold on the basis of supply and demand with markets, futures, and so forth. Don't like almond farms, bottled water companies pumping millions of gallons for the price of a $200 permit, and golf courses watering their courses during a drought? Then you should too.

Why?

Apparently so those water hoarding companies have to pay the full rate, instead of some subsidized rate. I.e. stop privatizing profits with socializing the costs

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#239

Post by MattRix »

targ65 wrote: post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

A huge amount of housing issues across North America are due to zoning issues, with areas that don’t allow high density housing to be built (or where the residents fight fiercely against it). You don’t need to deal with most of the other problems you mentioned if you fix this first.

The other issue is vacancy. 10% of homes are unoccupied. Coming up with ways to fill even some of those properties would be hugely impactful.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#240

Post by robertlagrant »

Victerius wrote: post #137
roenxi wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's something that turns a basic necessity into a speculative asset I see some broad parallels in this line of rhetoric to "Zeus brings misfortune because people are impious vs good fortune when they are worthy". It presumes a difference and a drive that is not there. All assets are both speculative and non-speculative at all times. There are no assets that cannot be bought speculatively and a house is always goin…

> There are problems in the housing market, but they are not to be found by worrying about people acting speculatively. People are responding to the real problem, whatever it is We should do both. Build more housing and crack down on speculators.

> We should do both. Build more housing and crack down on speculators.

No, just building more housing will make housing less useful to speculative investment, and so speculators won't invest. Just reverse the messing with normal supply and demand. Don't apply ever more patches on top of patches to fix a situation that wouldn't exist without the messing in the first place.

Sadly, it is very hard for politicians to a) want to decentralise control, because it's much easier to declare a new controlling initiative than to say "actually, we're just getting in your way" and b) get to decentalise control, because it's much harder to argue strong economic principles than appeal to special interest groups who might vote for someone else.

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