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Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
111–120 of 764 posts
Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
The poster above you (whittingtonaaon) proposed raising taxes on secondary, tertiary, etc. homes. That makes sense to me but "investors" looking for easy prey would surely hate on such solution. It's not like no one could have thought of this until now. I do not say this with the US in mind.
How do you propose we would — systematically — provide housing to people who, for whatever reason, are not in a position to buy? Should housing be bifurcated into government-provided housing for renters and privately-owned housing for those fortunate enough to have the money and stability to buy? Would you like to live in government housing, or would you prefer to keep the investor-owned rental option, but have them…
> How do you propose we would — systematically — provide housing to people who, for whatever reason, are not in a position to buy? Should housing be bifurcated into government-provided housing for renters and privately-owned housing for those fortunate enough to have the money and stability to buy?
Without speculators leeching off of them, 20 year old two bedroom units would cost less than they currently rent for each year.
Make property investors actually invest something by only allowing profit or rent on land that has been recently improved.
Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
#113"I'm not doing any harm," you say. "I just want to keep what I own, that's all." You own! You are like someone who sits down in a theater and keeps everyone else away, saying that what is there for everyone's use is your own...If everyone took only what they needed and gave the rest to those in need, there would be no such thing as rich and poor. After all, didn't you come into life naked, and won't you return naked…
It’s cute, but not a very practical philosophy though. Most valued resources are physically finite. Who decides how beachfront properties are allocated? Who decides who should clean the toilets?
Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
But how would you tackle it without making the problem worse?
A high land value tax moves the problem around (instead of young people not being able to buy a house, older folk can't afford to keep the large one they spent their lives in). In the process, it makes land completely unappealing to rent-seekers while incentivizing high-density development of desirable locations.
> older folk can't afford to keep the large one they spent their lives in
This is only a problem if you believe older folks should continue to live in big luxury houses for a pittance (read: gain the benefits of luxury without having the detriments of luxury), or the country does not have enough smaller housing for them to move.
In situations where housing is severely constrained at the cost of younger people, leaving old people in their large houses should be the last of your concerns. Doubly so for any social structures where older generations are extremely reliant on younger generations (almost every democratic, socialist or communist country).
Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
#115This WHY there's a "housing shortage", especially the removal of housing from long term occupancy due to short term rental...
Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
#116I definitely do. It's something that turns a basic necessity into a speculative asset, with a price distorted by the money poured into it. Airbnb is also a deeply harmful influence on housing prices. Imagine if we did the same thing with, say, water: privatized it and then "democratized" ownership of it. It's easy to get retail investors to buy things at inflated, speculative prices, so the price of water would go up…
> It's something that turns a basic necessity into a speculative asset
I see some broad parallels in this line of rhetoric to "Zeus brings misfortune because people are impious vs good fortune when they are worthy". It presumes a difference and a drive that is not there. All assets are both speculative and non-speculative at all times. There are no assets that cannot be bought speculatively and a house is always going to be an asset because it represents a big investment of capital.
If people are speculating on real estate, all that says is that the policy of an area is going to make housing rare vs the number of people who need housing. If people thought housing was going to be abundant they would not speculate.
There are problems in the housing market, but they are not to be found by worrying about people acting speculatively. People are responding to the real problem, whatever it is.
Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
#117People have been landlords throughout history and renters can only rent if they can pay. Plenty of other generations didn’t have an ability to have their own place so the current people who can’t aren’t special. Each individual’s ethics are not always aligned so there is no one rule to fit all.
There is nothing inherently wrong with landlords and rent. Anyone that says otherwise is a tankie. Landlords provide a valuable service. But there cannot be perpetual growth in rents like there is in say the growth of a startup. It’s the corporatization of landlords that is wreaking havoc by forcing them to maximize shareholder wealth. A simple solution is to bar corporations from charging rent for residential proper…
That's an interesting thought. At first read, I like the concept. I'm struggling to see the downsides here.
Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
#118I already posted a comment on this, but forgot to answer the actual question. I don’t think it follows that it’s wrong to commoditize basic necessities. Take, for example, food: the reason just about everyone in the western world can afford food is BECAUSE it is commoditized. I would like the barriers to home ownership to be lowered. On the other hand, I don’t think the rental market is evil. A lot of people can’t af…
You are talking about different kind of commoditization. Food processing is commotized, not the food itself. In fact food is naturally immune to have a speculative market as it could only be stored for short term.
Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
#119I think this is blatantly unethical, but also stupid. By creating a speculative bubble fueled by low interest and moderate to high inflation, these people will put themselves upside down in their holdings. Meanwhile this drives up homelessness (plenty of tent cities popped up near me as rents and housing prices skyrocketed) which will drive political instability and increase crime as people become desperate.
Edit: one more thought, this also really hurts people who priced carefully by increasing their property tax and insurance rates by no fault of their own.
Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
The poster above you (whittingtonaaon) proposed raising taxes on secondary, tertiary, etc. homes. That makes sense to me but "investors" looking for easy prey would surely hate on such solution. It's not like no one could have thought of this until now. I do not say this with the US in mind.
Most money in real estate isn't made on selling people 2nd homes. Unless I misunderstood your comment and you think corporations and investors shouldn't be able to own more than a single home at once(so landlord abolishment)?
What possible justification is there for landlording? No-one can make new space and all owned land was stolen from the commons.