Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

news.ycombinator.com

71–80 of 764 posts

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#71

IMHO the land belongs to all of us, like the air, and the water. ie '(wo)man is born free' rather than 'born to pay rent to a private owner until such time as they can buy a freehold and pass on the condition'. That doesn't mean you can't have exclusive use of some part of it, how else would we encourage people to take care of the land and develop it. But you should continuously pay everyone else for it's exclusive u…

>but you should continuously pay everyone else for it's exclusive use.

So pay rent to the state instead of a private landholder?

I found your first paragraph very agreeable and convincing, but this feels like it's just passing the problem on up to the state. Would you just be suggesting that any ownership of land outside of a a single home or apartment be heavily rented/taxed to the government, or literally all use of space used exclusively (e.g. a private bedroom)?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> agriculture, the foundation of the food supply, is one of the most commoditized markets that exist. And one of the most regulated and subsidized markets...

The US housing market is regulated and subsidised…the American dream of owning a home is socialist…US mortgages are guaranteed by federal government.. this doesn’t happen in most other countries..

>the American dream of owning a home is socialist…US mortgages are guaranteed by federal government..

"socialism" =/= government intervention.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#73
post #57

"I'm not doing any harm," you say. "I just want to keep what I own, that's all." You own! You are like someone who sits down in a theater and keeps everyone else away, saying that what is there for everyone's use is your own...If everyone took only what they needed and gave the rest to those in need, there would be no such thing as rich and poor. After all, didn't you come into life naked, and won't you return naked…

arguing against owning your home is arguing in favor of rent-seeking

That is an argument against greedy hoarding, not home ownership.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#74
post #5

I definitely do. It's something that turns a basic necessity into a speculative asset, with a price distorted by the money poured into it. Airbnb is also a deeply harmful influence on housing prices. Imagine if we did the same thing with, say, water: privatized it and then "democratized" ownership of it. It's easy to get retail investors to buy things at inflated, speculative prices, so the price of water would go up…

> Imagine if we did the same thing with, say, water: privatized it and then "democratized" ownership of it. We're watching this happen before our eyes.

Nestlé is at the forefront of taking over a water supply and selling it back to the locals to enrich the corporation at the expense of the humans who live there

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#75
Thomas Sowell - Basic Economics:

Chapter 1: What is Economics?

“The fundamental principles of economics are not hard to understand, but they are easy to forget, especially amid the heady rhetoric of politics and the media.” In Chapter 1 of Basic Economics, Thomas Sowell introduces the concept of economics, scarcity, and productivity:

Economy – a system for the production and distribution of the goods and services we use in everyday life

Economics – the study of the use of scarce resources which have alternative uses

Scarcity – the wants of everyone add up to more than what exists; without scarcity, there would be no need for economics

Productivity – the effectiveness of effort as measured at the rate at which inputs are turned into outputs

Role of Economics – helps us try to make decisions that make the most of the options that we are presented with in life, especially when allocating resources

Chapter 2: The Role of Prices

In Chapter 2 of Basic Economics, Thomas Sowell discusses the importance of prices and shows how resources are allocated:

Market Economy – an economic system in which production and prices are determined by unrestricted competition between individuals and businesses, not central planners

Transactions – the instance of buying or selling between consumers, producers, retailers, landlords, or workers on whatever terms they can mutually agree on

Prices – an amount of money that conveys the terms of the transaction not just to the individuals immediately involved but throughout the entire economic system

Supply – the tendency of producers to supply more at a higher price and less at a lower price; the quantity supplied varies directly with the price

Demand – the tendency of consumers to buy more at a lower price and less at a higher price; the quantity demanded varies indirectly with the price

Link: https://theprocesshacker.com/blog/basic-economics-thomas-sow...

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#76

No, because governments' ability to procure it for the needy is a very separable problem. But let me play Devil's Advocate: agriculture, the foundation of the food supply, is one of the most commoditized markets that exist. Does this bother you too? Why not? If it's because food is generally a smaller part of income, highly responsive to market pressure to keep prices low in addition to some stabilizing subsidies fro…

Well, why can't real estate work the same way?

The counter example to the OP's point about housing is agriculture? When we just had a story about how Bill Gates is now the US's largest land owner? When Farm AID was started to assist local farmers from corporate encroachment 40 years ago?! This whole thread points out how people who claim that the US has free markets are really deluding themselves. The FEDERAL government is heavily involved in EVERY non-trivial aspect of our PERSONAL lives, and they pick the winners and losers. It truly, truly sucks, but this trend of investment banks getting involved in buying up real estate, and driving up prices of home ownership is NOT going to go away. Owning a home will become so expensive that only corporations will be able to do so, and rent/lease it back to you. We truly are becoming a capitalistic country, and either you'll have "capital," or you won't. It's modern feudalism.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#77

No, because governments' ability to procure it for the needy is a very separable problem. But let me play Devil's Advocate: agriculture, the foundation of the food supply, is one of the most commoditized markets that exist. Does this bother you too? Why not? If it's because food is generally a smaller part of income, highly responsive to market pressure to keep prices low in addition to some stabilizing subsidies fro…

Because you can make more food but god ain't making any more land.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#78

No, because governments' ability to procure it for the needy is a very separable problem. But let me play Devil's Advocate: agriculture, the foundation of the food supply, is one of the most commoditized markets that exist. Does this bother you too? Why not? If it's because food is generally a smaller part of income, highly responsive to market pressure to keep prices low in addition to some stabilizing subsidies fro…

Well, why can't real estate work the same way?

I'll try, because the incentives are totally different. Food will perish if hoarded and you need a constant supply of it. Housing and real estate is the opposite, it's in almost everyone's interest that land values and property go up over time, especially the people who currently own it which includes politicians and probably around 50% of people. There is also price competition in the food market, which property developer out there competes on value? They all compete on perceived quality, the square footage and where they can buy land.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#79
yeah, the pressure on housing is a problem in so many countries and it really became problematic the more and more people started using it as a way of investing. In many places it is one of the easier things to convince a bank to give you a large loan for, so you can get a lot of leverage. Once you get one, then you get as many as you can get finance for, etc etc. At the end of the day, it may require a lot of oil on that fire before governments legislate such that massive leverage on lots of residential properties is not as desirable as other investment options.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#80
post #39

Well when you say "human right" and a government insists that home ownership is something they will focus on as a human right in their program, to a finance person what you are really saying is "this asset has a free put option attached to it". And having a backstop like that is a very sought after feature for speculators. It isn't the only area where speculators take advantage of it( for example energy generation is…

The poster above you (whittingtonaaon) proposed raising taxes on secondary, tertiary, etc. homes. That makes sense to me but "investors" looking for easy prey would surely hate on such solution. It's not like no one could have thought of this until now. I do not say this with the US in mind.

Why would landlords hate such a system. They can trivially pass on any tax to renters and have the incentives to figure out the loopholes in the tax code. It’s already common for single unit corporations to own rental properties.

Instead of taxing based on who owns the land, tax how it’s used. That way more units will be built increasing supply.

But then you’ll run into the real problem, not landlords, regular home owners who largely have a revealed preference to live on giant plots of land, in big houses far from multi unit dwellings. They’ll continue to use restrictive zoning to limit supply and keep prices up.

Post reply on HN