The Bay Area's lost streetcars
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The Bay Area's lost streetcars
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Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars
#2What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break even, or even at a loss, to sell property, and once they hit X saturation rate, the street car prices were raised to make it pay for itself, or simply sold off to the city to maintain, out of property taxes. With barely break-even rates, and no maintenance budget these lines quickly fell into disrepair, and no suprise, the city and local citizens decided to buy private cars, rather than eat a tax hike to pay for the maintenance of a rail line that only went downtown.
Yes, absolutely Big Business bought up/bought out a lot of small-time public transit, but you need to look at how and why these lines were built in the first place. They did not spring up out of the goodness of the hearts of property developers. Street cars for many years existed as a perk to sell farmland to urban expats, and once they had served their propose, were rapidly dismantled due to lack of service and maintenance costs. Nothing comes without a price.
Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars
#3What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…
The reason they are failing is because they are slow ass and never modernized. Now they are primarily tourist traps. SF is a bad example of a city with street cars, there are many countries with much better implementations of street cars. You need to give street cars priority and make sure they don't get overly slowed down by city traffic. If you want people to take streetcars, overhaul the entire infrastructure. You can keep the outer decoration and layout but the insides should be replaced with the latest tech from Siemens/the Japanese.
Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars
#4What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…
Hold up. Why would people who weren't willing to accept the taxes to maintain the street car willing to instead pay all the tax which subsidizes car infrastructure. This narrative doesn't quite add up because everything you said about why the street car existed and the commuter pattern that fed into the economics of developers applies equally well to why cars and suburb development exists. So once suburban homes were sold, why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for?
Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars
#5What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…
The reason they are failing is because they are slow ass and never modernized. Now they are primarily tourist traps. SF is a bad example of a city with street cars, there are many countries with much better implementations of street cars. You need to give street cars priority and make sure they don't get overly slowed down by city traffic. If you want people to take streetcars, overhaul the entire infrastructure. You…
eg: Melbourne, Australia
> Trams are a major form of public transport in Melbourne, the capital city of the state of Victoria, Australia.
> As of May 2017, the Melbourne tramway network consists of 250 kilometres of double track, 493 trams, 24 routes, and 1,763 tram stops.
> The system is the largest operational urban tram network in the world.
As featured in the engineering nerd cult classic film Malcolm (1986)
Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars
#6What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…
Hold up. Why would people who weren't willing to accept the taxes to maintain the street car willing to instead pay all the tax which subsidizes car infrastructure. This narrative doesn't quite add up because everything you said about why the street car existed and the commuter pattern that fed into the economics of developers applies equally well to why cars and suburb development exists. So once suburban homes were…
> So once suburban homes were sold, why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for?
This is currently playing out in older subdivisions all across America.
Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars
#7What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…
The reason they are failing is because they are slow ass and never modernized. Now they are primarily tourist traps. SF is a bad example of a city with street cars, there are many countries with much better implementations of street cars. You need to give street cars priority and make sure they don't get overly slowed down by city traffic. If you want people to take streetcars, overhaul the entire infrastructure. You…
The N Judah actually managed to get slower. Having trouble finding the photo but someone posted an N Judah schedule on reddit from the early 1900s and it was actually faster to get to downtown than it is now.
EDIT- Article about it
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/us/san-francisco-muni-str...
Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars
#8What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…
To make this happen, first, East Bay needs to make streets safer. It is ridiculous how crime ridden Oakland and Berkeley are to the point where it is probably wise to avoid public transportation all together. We need a national guard deployed here 24/7, that's how I feel walking around in downtown Oakland.
With NYCSPA vs Bruen ruling, I am planning to obtain a handgun and a CCW license from Alameda sheriff with a shall issue reason as "Self Defense".
You can go here and see how many people feel unsafe in California, particularly LA, SF and East Bay.
https://old.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/vlnrrw/the_rcaguns_...
Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars
#9What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…
Hold up. Why would people who weren't willing to accept the taxes to maintain the street car willing to instead pay all the tax which subsidizes car infrastructure. This narrative doesn't quite add up because everything you said about why the street car existed and the commuter pattern that fed into the economics of developers applies equally well to why cars and suburb development exists. So once suburban homes were…
> why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for?
A street in disrepair is still usable, a street car line in disrepair becomes unusable much faster. Only one part of the rail needs to fall apart when nobody will pay to fix it and you can't use it anymore. Potholes and washouts and lots more problems are solved by driving slowly and carefully. Especially with earlier automobiles which were more likely to run on dirt roads.
Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars
#10Hmmm no mention of the interurban street car from Los Gatos to San Jose, ran on San Carlos ave. Was marked on the turn of the century (1900) subdivision maps for my house in the Burbank neighborhood.
https://www.santacruztrains.com/2021/07/streetcars-san-jose-...