Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

“Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

the.scapegoat.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

511–520 of 521 posts

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#511

Post by Beltalowda »

brainwipe wrote: post #510
Beltalowda wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is essentially saying that autistic people can't learn. That's not really the case. Furthermore everyone has to adjust to the people around them, often causing untold stress for everyone . This is one of the aspects of the neurodivergency movement I am less impressed by because I feel it's just handwaving away any issues as "suck it up, not my problem, deal with it". I've worked with a few people like this over…

No, that's not what I'm essentially saying. Of course autistic can learn - it's called "masking". Masking causes trauma . Not just "finding co-worker annoying" but "not being able to go outside, not sleeping for 4 days in a row, stimming to the edge of self-harm, etc". Trauma. Not just being "stressed". Neurodivergency isn't a movement, in the same way that blindness isn't a movement. Or deafness isn't a movement. It…

> Neurodivergency isn't a movement, in the same way that blindness isn't a movement. Or deafness isn't a movement.

It absolutely is, it's a particular view and outlook on things. Blind or Deaf people have different takes and "movements" too. Deaf people in particular where some consider deafness to be core part of their identity and and a culture, rather than a disability to be "fixed", whereas others do merely see it as a disability they would like to see "fixed". Cochlear implants are something of a controversial issue among deaf people for example.

> Properly understanding the difficulties faced by the neurodiverse is a journey I thoroughly recommend.

I understand them because I face them myself too.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#512

Post by shlant »

larve wrote: post #260
shlant wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate how much patience you've had in these comments. There are so many uncharitable and dismissive responses from people who clearly are not interested in understanding your perspective. I appreciate you sharing so much. I think it's really important we have more people providing these viewpoints. You communicated what (I believe) you intended to very effectively and sometimes you will still be misunderstood…

Thank you, this means a lot. I don't really take these uncharitable comments as dismissive, instead it's a good sounding board to see what different things I could try to do differently. The real value I hope is that it resonates with people and it makes them feel less alone / allows them to reframe past interactions. A trait I have heard about often in autistic communities is how hard it is to let go of something if…

> instead it's a good sounding board to see what different things I could try to do differently.

> The fact that so many comments here are evidence of a "problem" thus is a great opportunity in disguise.

This is the kind of self-reflection and maturity which makes the comments about you actually not able to admit when your wrong so much more absurd

> A trait I have heard about often in autistic communities is how hard it is to let go of something if you can't explain it. That is definitely very true of myself.

Seems to track with my experience as my wife is on the spectrum. She can find it hard to have someone not understand her or some truth about reality and she feels a strong desire to keep engaging until they do. Can be both a blessing or a curse - the latter moreso when she doesn't realize she is dealing with someone who is bad faith - but she is getting better at recognizing that.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#513

Post by shlant »

JackFr wrote: post #279
shlant wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in this case an obvious solution might be to do what your manager suggests simply because he is your manager. I hope more Autistic and non-Autistic people don't put up with this kind of argument. I'm sure most people have an example of a manager making a technical decision (many times due to ego) and being wrong and then the engineering team has to clean up the mess. There should at least be room for discussion…

> I'm sure most people have an example of a manager making a technical decision (many times due to ego) and being wrong I'm sure most people have an example of making a technical decision (many times due to ego) and being wrong

the purpose of me making that point was "therefor, a manager shutting down discussion is not something that should just be accepted" not "managers are the only ones who are wrong"

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#514

Post by maerF0x0 »

spiralx wrote: post #501
maerF0x0 wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing about your argument is that the most bull headed person is the least likely to participate in the suggested manner. The attitude seems it will only exacerbate the number of times the Bull headed win for their bull headedness and the number of times the submissive people submit.

If there were only those two people involved that's possible. But in a situation with onlookers the bull-headed 'winner' will gain a reputation for being aggressive and unlikeable, while the the 'loser' will seem reasonable and professional. If our 'winner' persists with this behaviour they'll end up ostracised at best and more likely ousted from their position because no matter how correct they are, that sort of beh…

> But in a situation with onlookers the bull-headed 'winner' will gain a reputation for being aggressive and unlikeable, while the the 'loser' will seem reasonable and professional.

I like this angle, I'll try to observe if it's actually happening in my context :)

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#515

Post by blastro »

anchochilis wrote: post #144
gnfargbl wrote: post #25

> I needed to understand why our checkout had to be improved; I explained that technology choices made no difference to the user. However, the manager interpreted my words as outright rejecting their idea. That's an exceptionally patronising position to take. The manager almost certainly isn't a fool, and likely understands the author's point already. It's much more likely that the manager was actually asking if the…

Yep. If my manager asks a question like that, there are three appropriate responses: (1) Unfortunately that would be challenging for us because X. (2) We've been talking about that for ages, because X, Y, and Z. I'd love it if we could make time for a rewrite next quarter. (3) Hmm, interesting. Can you share the blog post? (Buys me time to think and follow up later). What neither of us have time for is for me to walk…

> What neither of us have time for is for me to walk him through my thought process via the Socratic method.

Hilarious.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#516

Post by rendall »

Tronno wrote: post #497
throwaway1777 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, indeed. The wife is never wrong.

Pretty disappointed to see these boomer-style "wife bad" jokes on HN. Have you considered that being comfortable admitting fault is a skill which some people never learned while growing up, regardless of gender? And can you imagine a world where men do the same thing, but you don't gripe about it because you're not in a relationship with them?

Once upon a time I too was upset when people found things funny that I did not. But, I've come around since then. Not to finding things i don't like funny, but to the idea that humor is complicated. Essential. Necessary. People offset anxiety and tensions with humor, and not laughing leads to problems more often than laughing does.

And, tbf, "the wife is never wrong" encodes some wisdom, same as does the saying "Happy wife means happy life" or, from White Men Can't Jump, "Always listen to the woman".

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#517

Post by Tronno »

rendall wrote: post #516
Tronno wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty disappointed to see these boomer-style "wife bad" jokes on HN. Have you considered that being comfortable admitting fault is a skill which some people never learned while growing up, regardless of gender? And can you imagine a world where men do the same thing, but you don't gripe about it because you're not in a relationship with them?

Once upon a time I too was upset when people found things funny that I did not. But, I've come around since then. Not to finding things i don't like funny, but to the idea that humor is complicated. Essential. Necessary. People offset anxiety and tensions with humor, and not laughing leads to problems more often than laughing does. And, tbf, "the wife is never wrong" encodes some wisdom, same as does the saying "Happ…

I'm not sure I follow. What's the wisdom encoded in those statements? In what situations would it apply? I would love to see an example.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#518

Post by BrandoElFollito »

A lot of what your are writing happens to other people as well.

For the "I know a lot" part, deep knowledge is open not recognized simply because people do not sense it. Unfortunately being recognized often means doing self promotion.

For the "I need to ask questions" part - I do too. And every serious engineer did too.

So far it looks tout are in a company that is not a great fit.

As for the rest, I am affraid that your may need to study people interactions me. It is not always politics, sometimes the way you engage other people.

I know that this is easier said than done, especially in your case but I would take it as a challenge. It cups make your like and intentions much easier.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#519

Post by larve »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #518

A lot of what your are writing happens to other people as well. For the "I know a lot" part, deep knowledge is open not recognized simply because people do not sense it. Unfortunately being recognized often means doing self promotion. For the "I need to ask questions" part - I do too. And every serious engineer did too. So far it looks tout are in a company that is not a great fit. As for the rest, I am affraid that…

Thanks! I hope you read this. My intent with the article was to say "you might thing someone can't acknowledge when they're wrong, but that's not always the case. here's my experiences." it might or might not help.

I am acutely aware that studying people interactions help me. I've lived in 3 countries and passed as native in each. I've come so much further than I ever thought possible because I studied interactions extensively, and practiced them even more. All that "talk to a 100 strangers every week", "learn public speaking," "learn to listen," "watch every possible show in the original language?" "immerse yourself in the culture." I've done it and then some, for years.

The treacherous effect of this is that the better you get, the fewer people believe you when you say that you are autistic / have trouble with reading people (I didn't believe it myself), and thus the more it is held against you when you actually make a mistake. "There is no possible way you couldn't know acting like X comes across as arrogant." In fact, it won't even be chalked up to cultural differences because no one realizes I'm french / german. They just think I have a slight speech impediment.

There is so much bronze-tier advice in this thread that shows that people have actually never tried or practiced what they are preaching here. There is so much rewording and "have you tried asking the question this way" or "you should do X," when really the words seem to matter the least. It's so much more about posture, demeanor, tone of voice, facial expressions than what you actually say. The irony of people immediately making the boldest assumptions and dishing out advice—all the while having no way of knowing if any of what they say is true (they don't know me)—is quite striking.

I tried not to engage on that topic, or bring up how many books about behaviour, workplace dynamics, politics, body language I have gone through because I don't like being combative.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#520

Post by ebjaas_2022 »

larve wrote: post #458
ebjaas_2022 wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I don't know how to handle (as evidenced by some comments here) is when to divulge how much I study / what fields I have a lot of experience in. I never understood where the boundary is between people thinking you are a know-it-all and arrogant, and thinking you are an idiot. I think the thing to understand, is that non-autistics are very, very particular about the difference between what's inside their own mi…

thanks for the comment. for what it's worth, I absolutely don't recognize myself in either description. If anything, I am a pretty good software engineer because I can "literally" see how people think about software when reading source code and pull requests (I say literally because these things are... objects I can manipulate in my mind? it's hard to describe, and it took me a while to realize not everybody sees it…

> I can "literally" see how people think about software when reading source code and pull requests (I say literally because these things are... objects I can manipulate in my mind? it's hard to describe, and it took me a while to realize not everybody sees it this way).

I think you're right.

The impression I get when I talk to an autistic person, or when I cooperate with him on a problem, is that he sees my thoughts and my ideas as "entities" within his own mind. This rhymes with what you say, that you perceive it as if other people's thought patterns are "objects that you can manipulate in your mind".

My subjective experience is that the autistic person will "dive into himself" to find the answer to who I am, in a given situation, while the non-autistic person will look outwards. It's as if the non-autistic person processes me in real time, using a massive parallel social GPU in his head, while the autistic person, instead, consults massive internal lookup tables to try and derive the same information.

I think the difference is fundamental. It has to do with the very "shelf system" in our brains; the way that we have stored information about the world, and made sense of it, since we were small kids. It's not something that we can change as adults, I think.

Post reply on HN