The Macbook "Brick" • Hacker News Board

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#21

Post by jws » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 5:17 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #12

jws wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

216 cubic inches, 0.098 lb/cu in, 21 pounds. Aluminum is running about $1/pound. That sounds like $20 to me. I think they can find room to bury that in the price tag. You could spend around $200 to buy a single 12"x12" plate from a metal retailer on line, but I think Apple would buy in volume. Actual volume of a macbook is 123 cubic inches, so it is even less. I suppose I could be wildly wrong about the price of what…

That looks like the current scrap price. Its at about $.80 at this very moment, down from a high of $1.10 earlier this year. Pure alloys (not mixed and cast by melting scrap), even common ones like 6061 still seem to be $5-$10/pound even in large quantities. If you know of a way to get 61 or 52 for less than that we would greatly appreciate the tip.

I just talked to an automotive manufacturer, ok, my brother. He is paying about $1.60 a pound for 6000 series aluminum extrusions. It was higher but is headed down.

I think the price works.

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#22

Post by jlouis » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 5:19 PM UTC

quasimojo wrote: post #18

jlouis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. I generally buy a new laptop every 3 years. I tend to buy a bit up the curve and get 1.5 years where the beast is fast, one year where the beast is "adequate" and half a year where the beast is "slow". To me, it is not about performance in laptops. It is about keyboard stability, robustness and weight. I have a blindingly fast desktop-computer and my laptop is for when I am not at home or when I want t…

i can safely say that you, seeking not performance but "keybaord stability" in a laptop, are a market of one. its so sad to see the fanbois try to justify their iSlavery, almost like a battered wife telling the judge she reaaaallyyyy stiiiill loooooves hiiiim.

The advice I consistently give people when buying laptops is: Remember that you can't change the hardware. If you hate a trackpad, you will be stuck with it. If you hate the keyboard: though luck. Too slow a CPU? oh god, no chance in hell you'll be able to change it.

I write code and analyze problems for a living. Hence, my need for a fast CPU is not that important as I spend most of the time in emacs and use languages that can compile fast. Do we happen to be a minority? Perhaps so. Had I been a media executive, then my priorities would probably not be on the keyboard at all but on how much RAM i could cram into the beast.

Apple is selling a brand as much as they are selling a laptop and an OS. Notice that the marketing focuses on what you can do with an apple mac. They know how much you are buying an identity for your money in addition to a computer. The Apple marketing is primary recruitment unit for the "fanbois" you mention because what they can do with the Macs matter to them.

If you look at Lenovo's sales pitches, you will see an entirely different focus as they are targeting a different user base.

And for the record:

  jlouis@succubus:~$ uname -a
  Linux succubus 2.6.27-4-generic #1 SMP Wed Sep 24 01:30:51 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux

  jlouis@succubus:~$ dmesg | grep thinkpad_acpi | grep model
  [   26.622322] thinkpad_acpi: IBM ThinkPad X40, model 23716EG

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#23

Post by qqq » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 6:00 PM UTC

bk wrote: post #16

mattmaroon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's been in and out of the Apple store ever since he bought it, and generally is about as functional as a brick.

I can painfully relate. One of my computers was called the Crapple (dual inherited from cripple and crap). I've owned four Apple computers (ibook G3, ibook G4, imac G5, macbook), and despite skipping first revisions and treating my computers very well, every single one of them has had several minor defects and all my notebooks have broken completely within a 3 year time frame. In my personal experience, Apple is a ha…

Anecdotal evidence is not important. Quality control needs to be observed over a large sample size.

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#24

Post by unalone » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 7:13 PM UTC

qqq wrote: post #23

bk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can painfully relate. One of my computers was called the Crapple (dual inherited from cripple and crap). I've owned four Apple computers (ibook G3, ibook G4, imac G5, macbook), and despite skipping first revisions and treating my computers very well, every single one of them has had several minor defects and all my notebooks have broken completely within a 3 year time frame. In my personal experience, Apple is a ha…

Anecdotal evidence is not important. Quality control needs to be observed over a large sample size.

That's what I came here to post. Seeing as within my college I've observed no laptop breakdowns, I think that Apple's still doing a pretty damn good job with quality control within my frame of reference. Meanwhile, a friend's HP notebook has broken down twice in the last year.

Not saying that my point of view is any more accurate than yours, but... you can't use a single frame of reference and decide that it's the most accurate. Gruber wrote about this a little while ago: after TechCrunch wrote that Apple had slipped from a 96% customer satisfaction rate to something in the 80s. His point was that yes, Apple had slipped, but it was still by far at the absolute top of the chain.

I asked my question kind of expecting the answer, but here's my two cents anyway: I really don't think that your original comment, or this entire chain of comments, really added to the thread at all. I've noticed a thread of people who'll enter any Apple thread just to bash Apple, and I think it's slightly annoying. I don't think I've seen anything on the Linux side going the other way, though I've seen people doing it to Windows articles and that's an annoyance too. Considering how high quality HN is usually, can't we decide to give it a rest and only add things to threads when they're relevant?

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#25

Post by unalone » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 7:23 PM UTC

quasimojo wrote: post #19

alaskamiller wrote: post #3

I like 9to5Mac the best out of all the other rumor sites. They definitely have some good relationships with Apple employees since I've seen corp info (both real and fake) leak multiple times.

GO BACK TO VALLEYWAG

I might be a patsy for saying this, but you're not serious, are you? Valleywag has the highest ratio of noise to signal of any site that I've seen - with the exception of the other sites in the Gawker portfolio. I try to avoid that entire branch of blogs unless I've got good reason to, or unless I'm recommended one article in particular.

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#26

Post by unalone » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 7:25 PM UTC

quasimojo wrote: post #18

jlouis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. I generally buy a new laptop every 3 years. I tend to buy a bit up the curve and get 1.5 years where the beast is fast, one year where the beast is "adequate" and half a year where the beast is "slow". To me, it is not about performance in laptops. It is about keyboard stability, robustness and weight. I have a blindingly fast desktop-computer and my laptop is for when I am not at home or when I want t…

i can safely say that you, seeking not performance but "keybaord stability" in a laptop, are a market of one. its so sad to see the fanbois try to justify their iSlavery, almost like a battered wife telling the judge she reaaaallyyyy stiiiill loooooves hiiiim.

Do you like coming into Apple threads and trolling? Because it's really got no purpose, especially on a site like this.

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#27

Post by dkokelley » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 8:28 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #6

A 12" x 12" x 1.5" block of aluminum costs more than $200. Not a very efficient method of making a computer case. I think maybe the article might be missing a few details!

What about recycling? Apple doesn't use the entire mass in each computer. Most of it would be hollowed out and the scrap could be recycled.

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#28

Post by bk » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 8:44 PM UTC

qqq wrote: post #23

bk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can painfully relate. One of my computers was called the Crapple (dual inherited from cripple and crap). I've owned four Apple computers (ibook G3, ibook G4, imac G5, macbook), and despite skipping first revisions and treating my computers very well, every single one of them has had several minor defects and all my notebooks have broken completely within a 3 year time frame. In my personal experience, Apple is a ha…

Anecdotal evidence is not important. Quality control needs to be observed over a large sample size.

Anecdotal evidence is very important when it concerns you - if you get cancer or your parachute happens to be the one that fails, the larger statistic is really not all that relevant, unless you're in a competition for "I got screwed in the most unlikely way in the world".

Secondly, even without a larger statistic, applying combinatorics, Markov chains, Bayesian inference can yield interesting insights, even if just for nerdy fun.

Lastly, by using "I can [...] relate" and "In my personal experience" I clearly signaled that I was merely making a personal statement. Cheers.

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#29

Post by jws » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 9:49 PM UTC

jws wrote: post #21

noonespecial wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That looks like the current scrap price. Its at about $.80 at this very moment, down from a high of $1.10 earlier this year. Pure alloys (not mixed and cast by melting scrap), even common ones like 6061 still seem to be $5-$10/pound even in large quantities. If you know of a way to get 61 or 52 for less than that we would greatly appreciate the tip.

I just talked to an automotive manufacturer, ok, my brother. He is paying about $1.60 a pound for 6000 series aluminum extrusions. It was higher but is headed down. I think the price works.

The above manufacturer counts on getting 80% of the source price back for their scrap. So you can imagine if apple rough mills the bricks to remove most of the material as chips and gets 80% of the rate for those pounds of chips, then uses their exotic processes for the final work they will generate more valuable scrap, cutting their end cost.

Re: The Macbook "Brick"

#30

Post by 131072 » Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 10:55 PM UTC

mhb wrote: post #17

131072 wrote: post #2

That article is a little garbled. What it seems to be saying is that Apple is going to CNC machine MacBook cases from a solid block instead of stamping (or maybe even hydroforming) them. This seems like an incomplete part of the story, since it would be near-impossible to CNC machine aluminum to the very thin dimensions they currently have with their stamped cases. It would also be very difficult to machine a block w…

That's interesting about the relative recycling value of chips vs. blocks. Is it possible to keep the chips covered in coolant to prevent oxidation if it is known that the aluminum is going to be remelted?

I had a look and found this: http://www.ars-inc.com/ROI.htm Still, buying expensive aluminum billets and then turning ~99% of the material into chips as would happen with a case design similar to the current MBP wouldn't be very efficient.

Perhaps they are moving to case designs that are a combination of CNC machined parts and stamped pieces? I'm sure Apple's design team is a lot more imaginative than me. There are some CNC-looking parts in the current MBP like the bracket that fixes the HD in place.

But let's face facts. Steve will not rest until he is selling Cube shaped computers again. :)