Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

fiod.nl

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

411–420 of 827 posts

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#411

Post by bufferoverflow »

clucas wrote: post #161
clippablematt wrote: post #60

Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering rather than going after the people actually committing crimes. Sounds about right. Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right! Sorry that it makes the polices job harder, but our rights are more important. And didn’t we go through all this already in the 90s? Are we now gonna start arresting all cryptographers? This…

If the international law enforcement community is really trying to go after "all cryptographers" why do you think we haven't seen more arrests? Why do you think they only arrested this guy? I get that you really want to defend crypto, but I think a simpler explanation is that they have good reasons to believe that this guy was doing more than just the stuff you're trying to defend (making privacy code). It would be l…

That's a straw man argument. They don't have to arrest all to scare most into doing what they want them to do.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#412

Post by sangnoir »

clippablematt wrote: post #60

Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering rather than going after the people actually committing crimes. Sounds about right. Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right! Sorry that it makes the polices job harder, but our rights are more important. And didn’t we go through all this already in the 90s? Are we now gonna start arresting all cryptographers? This…

> Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering

I have questions: did money laundering happen on the platform? Did the developer financially benefit from the money laundering? If the answer to both is "yes", then it sounds like the developer could be in a world of trouble, which is not related to crypto.

If I build a picture-sharing board with no moderation, and I profit from illegal pictures being shared, I would be in trouble for facilitating crime, that doesn't go away because I implement the picture-sharing on a blockchain. Using crypto to implement any system doesn't make it kosher: as far as the law is concerned,a system is what it does, not how it does it.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#413

Post by estebank »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #380
RansomStark wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not a human right The UN disagrees. Article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks". [0] You can argue what the right to privacy means and the limitations of that freedo…

Does the UN declaration have the force of law anywhere? Or is is more of a "we wish it worked like this" document?

> Although not legally binding, the contents of the UDHR have been elaborated and incorporated into subsequent international treaties, regional human rights instruments, and national constitutions and legal codes.

Third paragraph at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human...

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#414

Post by Kbelicius »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #256
tokai wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you look it up or are you just spouting what ever you can dream up to fit your argument? Lots of people all over the world have been arrested based on the panama papers.

pretty sure the only people who suffered where the execs running the company, losing their yearly bonus,...and only because they embarrassed their overlords. "In March 2018, Mossack Fonseca announced that it would cease operations at the end of March due to "irreversible damage" to their image as a direct result of the Panama Papers"

"In October 2020, German authorities issued an international arrest warrant for the two founders of the law firm at the core of the tax evasion scandal exposed by the Panama Papers. Cologne prosecutors are seeking German-born Jürgen Mossack and Panamanian Ramón Fonseca on charges of accessory to tax evasion and forming a criminal organization"

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#415

Post by notch656a »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #370
notch656a wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you find that abortion was never legal because the state statute on "murder" is vague. For instance, if the court re-interprets a murder statute then I believe that would apply to prior cases and then prior donations to any establishment assisting in abortion could be pursued as conspiracy. There's a lot of room to re-interpret laws that were already on the books in ways that make prior "crimes" illegal today…

That's not how our constitution works. Roe v Wade is binding for any actions a person carries out before it got overturned in Dobbs. Even if a court ruling or legal interpretation gets overturned later, that doesn't allow you to prosecute people who were relying on that legal interpretation. Judges aren't mindless machines and they realize the importance of avoiding postfacto prosecutions.

You have more faith in judges than I do. I've seen judges act as mindless machines.

and below still stands:

>There's other things that can be done as well, like searching their residence for every single code violation possible, daily police visits, civil asset forfeiture, fine-comb tax auditing, etc. It's a pretty well oiled machine for finding ways to convict people or make their life hell through the legal system if that's the goal.

If the powers that be want to punish those who contribute to abortion, they will find a way to do it, even ex-post-facto.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#416

Post by thebradbain »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #361
dcolkitt wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the international law enforcement community is really trying to go after "all cryptographers" why do you think we haven't seen more arrests? Why do you think they only arrested this guy? Because the standard playbook for "cracking down" is to first win cases against the least sympathetic, most prosecutable targets. Once that's under your belt, you gradually expand outwards to increasingly ordinary people. It's w…

> As abortion laws restart, states won't begin by arresting anyone who's ever donated to Planned Parenthood. But if left unchecked, some will eventually get there. First thing, you can't arrest people for prior donations as postfacto laws are unconstitutional. Second, if abortion is considered murder, why should it be legal to fund illegal abortions? We generally don't allow people to fund criminal activity for good…

> Second, if abortion is considered murder, why should it be legal to fund illegal abortions? We generally don't allow people to fund criminal activity for good reasons.

Because it's not murder. Legislating that it is does not make it so. Full stop. That's like a government trying to legislate that the sky must always be blue, or that it's illegal to frown, or that 2+2=5. Just because it's a law does not make it just or sensible, and I would hope that in modern society we would not blindly obey unjust/unnecessary/unwelcome laws without questioning.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#417

Post by ABeeSea »

sangnoir wrote: post #412
clippablematt wrote: post #60

Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering rather than going after the people actually committing crimes. Sounds about right. Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right! Sorry that it makes the polices job harder, but our rights are more important. And didn’t we go through all this already in the 90s? Are we now gonna start arresting all cryptographers? This…

> Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering I have questions: did money laundering happen on the platform? Did the developer financially benefit from the money laundering? If the answer to both is "yes", then it sounds like the developer could be in a world of trouble, which is not related to crypto. If I build a picture-sharing board with no moderation, and…

They were also asked to implement some basic money laundering preventions. They did nothing.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#418

Post by JumpCrisscross »

akimball wrote: post #334
rocqua wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We currently have a lot of international trade that does just fine being USD based. Are we not in a 'multipolar' world? I don't know that term.

...and the USD is used for far more illicit transactions than any other exchange medium. This will predictably change as privacy technologies become more widely adopted. For example, transactions on the Monero network have been growing at an exponential rate for several years.

> will predictably change as privacy technologies become more widely adopted. For example, transactions on the Monero network have been growing at an exponential rate for several years

The posts keep shifting for what governments cannot enforce. I suppose this is a natural endgame; crypto enthusiasts setting precedents for, and giving popular cause to, state expansion.

AML has never been even close to perfect. But it's enforced. Hopefully, the Monero community learns from Tornado. Instead of thumbing its nose at the law, it could try to not encourage illicit transfers in the name of some convoluted (if entirely unoriginal) interpretation of financial privacy. Then it could survive and become something novel, like Bitcoin.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#419

Post by vorpalhex »

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #339
chitowneats wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some will ... arrest anyone who's ever donated to Planned Parenthood" This is a hysterical prediction.

Various states already prohibit using public money to fund abortions, a prohibition on private funds for an act they consider extremely illegal and equivalent to murder is not a stretch. "12 states prohibit state family planning funds from going to any entity that provides abortions." https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-family...

You can prohibit public money for any reason - and we do all the time, eg forcing the state to buy only US made cars.

You can't prohibit private money use in a situation like this - especially not for a political funding thing. That is actually a freedom of speech issue.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#420

Post by dylan604 »

dcolkitt wrote: post #323
clucas wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the international law enforcement community is really trying to go after "all cryptographers" why do you think we haven't seen more arrests? Why do you think they only arrested this guy? I get that you really want to defend crypto, but I think a simpler explanation is that they have good reasons to believe that this guy was doing more than just the stuff you're trying to defend (making privacy code). It would be l…

> If the international law enforcement community is really trying to go after "all cryptographers" why do you think we haven't seen more arrests? Why do you think they only arrested this guy? Because the standard playbook for "cracking down" is to first win cases against the least sympathetic, most prosecutable targets. Once that's under your belt, you gradually expand outwards to increasingly ordinary people. It's w…

Then the community needs to be better about self-policing. If there are people in your group doing shady shit with your group's tech, then get rid of them. Otherwise, you start sounding like the police with "bad apples" but not all are bullshit. If you see someone doing wrong and don't sound the alarm, then you are part of the problem.
Post reply on HN