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Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

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Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#401

Post by dylkil »

beeboop wrote: post #383
dcolkitt wrote: post #260

A lot of the apologists for this are making arguments along the lines of "being decentralized doesn't make you exempt from the rules" or "imagine if a bank laundered this much money". The problem is it doesn't make sense to treat protocols like companies. And it definitely doesn't make sense to treat protocol devs as if they were the executives of those companies. The CEO of a bank and the lead dev of a protocol have…

Let's be clear - this isn't money laundering. Money laundering is taking illicit funds and making them look legitimately sourced. Tornado Cash does not do this, it is clear that the source is Tornado Cash, and it does nothing to legitimize funds. To spend crypto you still most likely need to convert it to fiat and that fiat money will still be under scrutiny for its source.

Exactly, everyone is missing this. If anything using tornado cash is analogous to converting debit into cash.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#402

Post by rootusrootus »

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #384
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If planned parenthood isn't performing any abortions in a state where it is illegal, how could funding them ever be made illegal? None of this makes sense.

People from illegal states already cross state lines to get abortions and then return to their home states. While it's not presently illegal, without Roe v Wade, I think that may quickly change. > No state has yet enacted a law to ban this travel. But it has been attempted: In Missouri, a bill is pending that would enforce abortion restrictions through civil lawsuits if the abortion is administered outside the state.…

> enforce abortion restrictions through civil lawsuits

I wonder how long it will be before SCOTUS kills off these attempts to use civil litigation to end-run the Constitution. The Texas law matched the court's ideology, so they let it stand, but now that Roe is overturned I expect the court to dispense with the law before places like California can use it to render the 2A moot.

If they let this continue, the court will become irrelevant in a hurry. They may have granted themselves sweeping authority a long while back, but that can be changed easily via legislation.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#403

Post by ehathaway »

This isn't just the arrest of a developer expressing his freedom. Its the arrest of a developer who was knowingly part of a group of people who had the intention of deploying code (via smart contracts). The deployment of the code facilitated activities that were claimed to be illegal.

The issue isn't owning or writing viruses or malicious code, the issue is distribution and deployment of such code.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#404

Post by zaroth »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #286
implements wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(From Wikipedia) The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States ensures that "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be se…

> unreasonable > arbitrary There is no absolute right to privacy.

There are no absolute rights. Even the right to life is not absolute.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#405

Post by aqme28 »

im3w1l wrote: post #386
aqme28 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My pet theory is that he's just one of the myriad of early developers who made hundreds of millions from crypto and keep relatively private. At that point he'd have nothing to gain and a lot to lose by revealing himself.

Satoshi owns a huge hoard of bitcoin that has never moved. He has a lot to gain (and a lot to lose) by making use of that money.

If you have maybe 300MM from early investments, and are a private person who doesn't want fame, then what does Satoshi's hoard actually buy you?

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#406

Post by km3r »

zomglings wrote: post #336
JohnHaugeland wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't open source privacy code. Whether or not someone else does something bad with it isn't relevant. Until you can face what it really is, you aren't going to come to terms with what's happening. This is like making unlicensed guns that don't follow safety or tracking regulations, then complaining "but I'm not the burglar, I didn't kill anyone" when you get shut down. This is and always has been the obvious ex…

What do you think the purpose of this code is? There are people operating on blockchains in which transaction parameters are a matter of public record who: 1. May not want individual amounts and recipients to be publicly inspectable. 2. And are not criminals. It may not be a right, but Tornado Cash is absolutely a tool to increase privacy. It is not solely for criminals to liquidate blockchain assets.

Even if there is people who want that, that doesn't justify it. Privacy has limits, and there is some really bad people using crypto to transfer assets. Banks are required to report suspicious transactions, so working around banking laws by using crypto is clearly breaking the spirit of those regulations. If an individual wants privacy, there is a more standing if they do it themselves, but when a third party gets involved, they must follow the same laws all businesses must follow. You can't code yourself out of legal responsibility.

Now if you don't think banks should be required to report suspicious transactions, get that law changed. But circumventing the law with crypto isn't the solution.

And taxes are kind of proof that the government has a right to see ones personal transactions. You can't have income taxes without verifiable income requirements and reporting.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#407

Post by clucas »

formerly_proven wrote: post #348
clucas wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the international law enforcement community is really trying to go after "all cryptographers" why do you think we haven't seen more arrests? Why do you think they only arrested this guy? I get that you really want to defend crypto, but I think a simpler explanation is that they have good reasons to believe that this guy was doing more than just the stuff you're trying to defend (making privacy code). It would be l…

> It would be like... if two dozen people were picketing outside of a big corporation, and the police came and arrested one dude. You would be the guy saying "they're coming for the protesters!" and I'm the guy saying "Well, if they're really after protesters why didn't they arrest all of them? And isn't that the guy they were investigating for a bank robbery?" Weird take because taking one or a few persons out of a…

OK, fine, change the example to... imagine there are a hundred restaurants in town, and the police come and arrest one restaurant owner. OP is the guy saying "they're coming for the restaurant owners!" and I'm the guy saying "Well..." etc.

My point is, there are a lot of people on HN who seem to think any arrest or prosecution of anyone who is involved in crypto is due to a shadowy push by the establishment to maintain control of the money supply and thus our lives. I'm trying to point out (1) there are simpler explanations, and (2) if you keep trying to defend everyone involved in crypto without knowing the facts, you're going to get burned and normies are going to be a lot more skeptical about crypto in the future. Just... be careful, guys.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#408

Post by notch656a »

JohnHaugeland wrote: post #198
clippablematt wrote: post #60

Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering rather than going after the people actually committing crimes. Sounds about right. Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right! Sorry that it makes the polices job harder, but our rights are more important. And didn’t we go through all this already in the 90s? Are we now gonna start arresting all cryptographers? This…

This isn't open source privacy code. Whether or not someone else does something bad with it isn't relevant. Until you can face what it really is, you aren't going to come to terms with what's happening. This is like making unlicensed guns that don't follow safety or tracking regulations, then complaining "but I'm not the burglar, I didn't kill anyone" when you get shut down. This is and always has been the obvious ex…

>This is like making unlicensed guns that don't follow safety or tracking regulations,

That is actually legal in the nation that was in the news for sanctioning Tornado Cash.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#409

Post by postalrat »

sph wrote: post #85
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think someone who believes that it will bring certain death could resist. It wouldn't surprise me if he destroyed his private keys to prevent himself from ever succumbing to the temptation. Those coins are of little value when using any of them would kick off a race to track you down and kidnap you with the intention of rubber-hosing the key out of you before going short on bitcoin. Having a secret in your head tha…

He must have lost the keys very early, when Bitcoin was just a fun experiment, and that would still be dubious: how did he imagine his creation would be so big as to prompt destroying his keys right there and then? The common human response at that idealistic stage would be greed. And even if he had the foresight, it's probably harder to just stay silent for 15 years. I imagine one would just come out, say they've lo…

Why would you mine your digital currency and then just throw it away? That's not something he wanted others to do so why do it yourself?

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#410

Post by ABeeSea »

biglearner1day wrote: post #97
ABeeSea wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helping criminals launder money is not a human right.

I would challenge you to prove that they actively advertised their service as such. Stop spreading misinformation.

You don’t have to actively advertise your criminal conspiracies for them to be criminal conspiracies. They knowingly facilitated illegal activities.
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