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Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

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Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#341

Post by probably_wrong »

yawnxyz wrote: post #274
dcolkitt wrote: post #260

A lot of the apologists for this are making arguments along the lines of "being decentralized doesn't make you exempt from the rules" or "imagine if a bank laundered this much money". The problem is it doesn't make sense to treat protocols like companies. And it definitely doesn't make sense to treat protocol devs as if they were the executives of those companies. The CEO of a bank and the lead dev of a protocol have…

Isn't this kind of like the dev of SMTP getting arrested because two people committed a crime by communicating through email?

In my opinion, this (very popular!) line of reasoning is missing the forest for the trees.

A knife is widely regarded as a tool that's legal to own and that, save a few precautions, you can carry with you. Switchblades, despite being also knives, are widely considered dangerous and their sale and possession is overall restricted (presumably) due to a strong correlation between the presence of a switchblade and stabbings.

Just because SMTP and Tornado are protocols it doesn't mean they are the same - one is a protocol enabling a wide range of activities (some of them criminal, some not) while the other is literally designed to hide the origin of money, an activity that most governments frown upon.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#342

Post by whatisweb3 »

sva_ wrote: post #325
whatisweb3 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US sanctions on mixers in the past have been associated with an individual, not a piece of code. This is the first sanction to target an open source and non-custodial mixer.

A piece of code that has been actively maintained by a group of people.

Yes. Like putting a sanction on the open Matrix protocol, and blocking any user who has interacted with it.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#343

Post by glennvtx »

lbriner wrote: post #305
dlubarov wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Encrypted communication protocols are also useful for evading the law; do you think they should also be banned and the developers arrested?

No, that's not what they said. They said if you are using it to break laws, then you can't not expect to be arrested. A money laundering operation can hardly been seen as fundamentally a way to provide privacy but as a way to change dirty money into clean. It's like claiming that an illegal brothel provides employment services as well as anything dodgy that people might use it for!

It absolutely protects your privacy in a system where the movement of money is public. Donations to politically sensitive organizations can be used against you, this technology limits that possibility, just as the traditional banking system does not make your transactions public. Many places in the world people do not enjoy your privilege of immunity from state violence due to support for activism.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#344

Post by chitowneats »

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #339
chitowneats wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some will ... arrest anyone who's ever donated to Planned Parenthood" This is a hysterical prediction.

Various states already prohibit using public money to fund abortions, a prohibition on private funds for an act they consider extremely illegal and equivalent to murder is not a stretch. "12 states prohibit state family planning funds from going to any entity that provides abortions." https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-family...

And you believe it will be legal for them to arrest you for donations you made before those laws were in place?

That's assuming you're correct they would try to ban private funds. A big assumption.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#345

Post by chitowneats »

formerly_proven wrote: post #340
chitowneats wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some will ... arrest anyone who's ever donated to Planned Parenthood" This is a hysterical prediction.

a) Interesting choice of words b) Donating to PP is aiding murder (née abortions), it's a small step to abetment.

It's hysterical in both senses of the word.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#346

Post by kube-system »

programmarchy wrote: post #335
kube-system wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be able to encrypt some information associated with a crime, but you can't encrypt the real world manifestation of crime. https://xkcd.com/538/

The comic proves the parent's point. Drugging and hitting people with a wrench (i.e. torturing) to extract information is exactly what police states do.

The comic has a non-literal meaning as well. (i.e. see the alt-text) The wrench can be a warrant, a confidential informant, or it can be a security camera, etc. Obviously, the world consists of more sources of information than encrypted data on your laptop and the information inside of your head.

Crimes happen in the real world, not behind a cipher. Some element of any crime is unencrypted and unencryptable.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#347

Post by rchaud »

BobbyJo wrote: post #257
threeseed wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather than going after the people actually committing crimes Actually they go after the people committing the crime AND those facilitating it. > Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right (a) Not a human right, (b) not enshrined in any country's law, (c) does not absolve illegal behaviour.

Privacy is very much enshrined in US law, it's the 4th amendment to our constitution.

Strange how the NSA can just skate through this. Then again, the US Constitution also says "All men are created equal" and that was a bunch of horseshit for centuries.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#348

Post by formerly_proven »

clucas wrote: post #161
clippablematt wrote: post #60

Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering rather than going after the people actually committing crimes. Sounds about right. Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right! Sorry that it makes the polices job harder, but our rights are more important. And didn’t we go through all this already in the 90s? Are we now gonna start arresting all cryptographers? This…

If the international law enforcement community is really trying to go after "all cryptographers" why do you think we haven't seen more arrests? Why do you think they only arrested this guy? I get that you really want to defend crypto, but I think a simpler explanation is that they have good reasons to believe that this guy was doing more than just the stuff you're trying to defend (making privacy code). It would be l…

> It would be like... if two dozen people were picketing outside of a big corporation, and the police came and arrested one dude. You would be the guy saying "they're coming for the protesters!" and I'm the guy saying "Well, if they're really after protesters why didn't they arrest all of them? And isn't that the guy they were investigating for a bank robbery?"

Weird take because taking one or a few persons out of a large crowd is a standard LE tactic for attacking protests and similar stuff.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#349

Post by akimball »

wolongong942 wrote: post #133
PeterisP wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC you can't buy a house anonymously in Netherlands, no matter if you pay with cash or not, you'd be required to register the transfer of ownership in the cadastral system, and any real estate deals must be with a written contract that identifies both parties. And I believe the NL tax reporting for large gifts also requires you to identify the donor. In essence, the limitation is not on the method of payment but on…

I doubt you could buy a house anonymously anywhere in the west. Typically all large transactions get auto reported to the financial intelligence unit, with the tax man getting access to the data set as well. If paid via crypto they'd find out when the recipient cashes out, forcing him/her to do source of funds.

This is accomplished every day in every country in the western hemisphere by means of shell companies.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#350

Post by voakbasda »

game-of-throws wrote: post #245
afavour wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually when there’s an ongoing investigation the default is for police to not release too much information to avoid jeopardising the investigation, then release all the info when the investigation is complete. It’s frustrating and often a principle that’s applied too broadly, but I do understand the reasoning behind it.

I agree they usually withhold details of the case. But I don't think they would flat-out lie about the charges being brought.

In the US, government agents absolutely can and do lie during the course of an investigation. This is why you should never ever talk to the police.
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