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Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

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Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#281

Post by JohnHaugeland »

balfirevic wrote: post #262
JohnHaugeland wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to believe that if a tool is illegal, as long as it's open source and the people making it don't have a criminal background, and as long as you call it something like "privacy software," somehow it's suddenly not illegal But this is a tool whose specific purpose it is to make it difficult to track illegal transactions. Of course this is happening. Programmers get way too wrapped up in "but I called it open s…

> But this is a tool whose specific purpose it is to make it difficult to track illegal transactions. What's the difference between that and a tool whose specific purpose is to make it difficult to track transactions in general?

I don't see this as a meaningful split.

I would react the same way to someone trying to get me to define the difference between an assault rifle and a hunting rifle.

In the context of an AR-47, it's an irrelevant, time wasting question.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#282

Post by Ekaros »

m12k wrote: post #41
sph wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Satoshi has demonstrated inhuman levels of restraint. The only explanation is that he is dead. The others are that he is not human, or that it's a committee defying Hanlon's razor: i.e. not governed by stupidity like most human affairs, but malice. Both are equally improbable.

He could also very well have lost his wallet, no?

Not liked the direction and not actually seen the future. It took some time for those coins to be worth something.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#283

Post by tsimionescu »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #140
wolongong942 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt you could buy a house anonymously anywhere in the west. Typically all large transactions get auto reported to the financial intelligence unit, with the tax man getting access to the data set as well. If paid via crypto they'd find out when the recipient cashes out, forcing him/her to do source of funds.

At least in the US, house purchases are by default anonymous. The only reason I know the sellers of my house is because they put in their trust name their full legal names. Last time I sold a house, the only reason I met with the buyer directly was because I didn't use an agent for the sale.

Are you staying that the state/county doesn't know that you are the person owning that house, or doesn't know who the previous owner was?

This thread is not about privacy from other private citizens/companies, but privacy from the state authorities. For example, my bank account is private in the first sense (even my parents couldn't find out how much money I have unless I tell them), but it's not private in the second sense (financial authorities have the right to ask my bank how much money I have).

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#284

Post by Sebb767 »

agotterer wrote: post #150
Sebb767 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anonymizing spending on it’s own is not a crime. Money laundering laws very much disagree with this.

I’m not familiar with the money laundering laws. But do they state that you can’t buy something anonymously and without an audit trail? Because spending legally obtained cash seems anonymous to me. Is anonymizing your digital spend with legally obtained capital that different?

I can't speak for the US, but in Germany, transactions between countries over 10k€ must be reported to the Bundesbank. There are similar limits for inner-country transactions with businesses, especially financial ones. I assume the USA has similar rules. So small cash transaction are fine, but as soon as larger sums are involved it's going to be very problematic.

Since crypto currencies, nearly by definition, don't care about country borders and the mixers don't trace the amount put in by each user, they almost certainly allow you to circumvent money laundering registration requirements. It's even worse if they frame the mixer as financial institution, in which case it directly violates its reporting requirements.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#285

Post by tsimionescu »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #176
djbusby wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's anon, how does the government get their property taxes?

Property taxes are between the owner and the county where I live. They are paid in advance, so you can't sell a house without paying the property tax first. It'd be liened by the tax authority to prevent the sale.

But if the owner is anonymous, how does the country know who to ask for paying the taxes? How would the county even find out that the house changed ownership?

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#286

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

implements wrote: post #243
desindol wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privacy is a human right? citation needed.

(From Wikipedia) The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States ensures that "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be se…

> unreasonable

> arbitrary

There is no absolute right to privacy.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#287

Post by seanw444 »

whatisweb3 wrote: post #158
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US sanctioning Tornado Cash Zero evidence this is connected to U.S. sanctions. Dutch law protects even cash transactions less than American law. When the investigation started, in June, the U.S. had already released evidence Tornado Cash was used to launder money. If a Dutch person kept working on it, it might be trivial to show they broke Dutch criminal statute.

The first time a developer of open source, non-custodial and autonomous smart contract code has been arrested comes days after the US sanctions the same smart contract. Probably just a coincidence.

I often wonder if people are aware that the US is basically a one world government. You cannot run. If you believe you are innocent, and you run to any other "somewhat free" country, they will send you right back to get railroaded through the "justice" system. If you do something outside the real jurisdiction of the US, they will find a way to put you in their jurisdiction.

The US has significant control over European countries. They're nearly vassal states to a degree.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#288

Post by omginternets »

lizardactivist wrote: post #45

Sad to see the EU bow down to the criminal racket that is the US financial system. Even if this developer is not extradited, the US has again succeeded in maintaining the culture of fear, where they can get their slimy hands on anyone anywhere for any reason they want.

Where did you see that this was connected to the US financial system? They mention in passing that the US has sanctioned Tornado Cash, but I didn't get the impression that this was the reason why this person was arrested.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#289

Post by dlubarov »

kube-system wrote: post #259
clippablematt wrote: post #60

Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering rather than going after the people actually committing crimes. Sounds about right. Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right! Sorry that it makes the polices job harder, but our rights are more important. And didn’t we go through all this already in the 90s? Are we now gonna start arresting all cryptographers? This…

The right to privacy ends at the moment that it is used as an excuse to evade the law. Every country recognizes warrants for this reason.

Encrypted communication protocols are also useful for evading the law; do you think they should also be banned and the developers arrested?

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#290

Post by tgflynn »

clucas wrote: post #161
clippablematt wrote: post #60

Ah yes, arrest developers of open source privacy code and blame them for North Korea money laundering rather than going after the people actually committing crimes. Sounds about right. Privacy is not a crime, it’s a human right! Sorry that it makes the polices job harder, but our rights are more important. And didn’t we go through all this already in the 90s? Are we now gonna start arresting all cryptographers? This…

If the international law enforcement community is really trying to go after "all cryptographers" why do you think we haven't seen more arrests? Why do you think they only arrested this guy? I get that you really want to defend crypto, but I think a simpler explanation is that they have good reasons to believe that this guy was doing more than just the stuff you're trying to defend (making privacy code). It would be l…

It could be the first of many. Up until yesterday we lived in a world (by which I mean the Western World) where no one had ever been arrested just for writing open source code. It appears that this is no longer the case. This is how the Overton window gets moved, one step at a time, not in huge leaps. And clearly there are powerful forces interested in moving it in a direction that would likely be detrimental to many of us here.
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