Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#281

Post by LocalPCGuy » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:29 PM UTC

shafyy wrote: post #251

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

I do think that take home tasks are the best way to hire somebody (or letting somebody bring their existing, recent code and talk about that). At the same time, I think companies should pay applications if this take home task takes more than 1-2 hours. I'm not saying you need to pay a lot, I think it's more a symbolic gesture of respect. Those costs are negligible for a company compared to the money and resources the…

I'd challenge you to consider that take home tasks are better for some interviewees, but others would do better to have that task done as part of the interview (in-person, video). Offering an option (maybe even ahead of time) allows the individual to play to their strengths and situation, and properly designed (and with good questions/exercises to ensure people who are just good interviewees don't BS their way through the process) it shouldn't make much difference which option the interviewee chooses.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#282

Post by ghaff » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:29 PM UTC

Matticus_Rex wrote: post #143

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. Because nearly every other industry is credentialed, so proving your 3-8 years of university grind is enough to get hired. Outside of tech, any other white collar interview is basically a 15-60 minute coffee or lunch with the boss (the culture fit interview basically) and then, unless you showed some red flags, you g…

> Because nearly every other industry is credentialed, so proving your 3-8 years of university grind is enough to get hired. Nearly every other industry is credentialed and a degree is enough to get hired? I don't think that matches reality at all.

>Nearly every other industry is credentialed

In general, the undergrad degree is a filter. Unless someone for, say, a marketing role has a lot of experience, a BS/BA is probably a requirement and a better known school probably gives you a bit of a leg up as may a graduate degree.

You're still going to have some interviews. In my experience, HR passes promising resumes through, there are 5 or so half hour interviews, and then there's a thumbs up/down by the people who did the interviews.

But for most roles there's no specific non-negotiable credential like there is for an accountant or lawyer.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#283

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #157

jerf wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You’re setting up a gigantic straw man." And called it the HN gestalt. Pretty sure I labelled it with what it is right up front. Nevertheless, I do think there are quite a few individuals who have an unexamined (in the philosophical sense) assumption that they just shouldn't have to do anything to get hired. I bet most of them, if they examined it, would realize that it's not a sensible assumption. I think it sneaks…

Labeling it it as a the HN gestalt doesn’t mean that it’s not a straw man. You can’t take the union of everyone’s food dislikes and say “according to the Earth gestalt, no food is edible.”

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#284

Post by dudul » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

Dork1234 wrote: post #261

I really think these unpaid home assignments are just to rule out people with kids. You are expecting people wake up, get kids ready, work a 8+ hour day, commute (?), pick up kids, feed kids, and then after all of this be functional for some assignment that realistically has nothing to do the job I am applying for since it has been water down to fit into a "small" time frame.

How is it different if you ask them to take 2 or 3 1hour calls?

At the end of the day, interviewing - regardless of take home, whiteboarding, pair programming, leetcode - is a time commitment. Yes people with a family or limited spare time are at a disadvantage, but I don't think there is a way around that.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#285

Post by wan23 » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #163

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. Because nearly every other industry is credentialed, so proving your 3-8 years of university grind is enough to get hired. Outside of tech, any other white collar interview is basically a 15-60 minute coffee or lunch with the boss (the culture fit interview basically) and then, unless you showed some red flags, you g…

This. The popularity of coding bootcamps is another factor. Software engineers don't like the concept of formal credentials. Fine. But you'll have to demonstrate your skills at one of the interview stages. Or we could create something like the American Academy of Software Engineers, or the Society of Software Engineers, or the Software Engineering Institute, which would be tasked with accrediting schools and programs…

It would be really easy for the industry to do a half measure on this one. All of the big companies could get together and agree to accept a certificate that you get by passing a few of those white board algorithms rounds. It's just such a ridiculous waste of effort for everyone involved to test these things over and over again in an NxM interviwers x jobs loop. When you go for an on site interview you should be evaluated on the work you've done and what you bring to the company. Throw in some system design for senior people if you must, since that at least is a bit more specific to the tech stack you will actually be using.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#286

Post by q7xvh97o2pDhNrh » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

cableshaft wrote: post #159

JadoJodo wrote: post #100

The tactic I’ve employed at my company when vetting a candidate is to give them a link to a small code sample (usually a single class or service for backend, some JS/CSS for front end) to review the day before the interview. The code itself will include some obvious issues, some less obvious issues, some language specific opportunities for improvement, etc. We then walk through their notes (if they made any), and the…

I had a similar interview once. They asked me to bring in a code sample, we discussed what it did and various details around it, then he showed me an actual class in their codebase (printed out), asked me to explain figure out and explain everything it did, and there was also a couple mistakes included in the code for me to find as well. The guy also asked me a few relatively simple technical questions, then said "Ok…

I like this a lot! Somehow, that little detail you mentioned at the beginning -- that he had the code printed out for you -- feels like a lovely subtle little green flag.

I've long felt that 60 minutes is sufficient for a competent interviewer. In a past life, I was tasked with interview-slots where I had to both assess the candidate and double-check the signal other interviewers got, and I would spend:

  - 5 minutes on intros,
  - 15 minutes on a coding exercise,
  - 15 minutes on architecture discussion about something else,
  - 15 minutes on "behavioral" questions about something other than *those*,
  - and 5-10 minutes on "do you have any questions for me."

Et voila -- that was the whole interview. A fairly simple recipe, and it turns out it yielded equal-or-better signal than all the other interviewers on the loop put together, > 90% of the time.

I love the fact that your interviewer got it down to 30 minutes, and I especially love that part of his interview process was sitting down with the candidate and teaching something new on-the-fly. (If I had to guess, it was your "I don't know" -- followed by how you handled being taught something -- that sealed the deal for your offer.) That sounds way better than a lot of the behavioral-question fluff that I used to try when I was still finding my way as an interviewer. I'll have to give that a try.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#287

Post by mekoka » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

Complaining about unfair practices doesn't imply that you're unwilling to be tested, hence strawman.

The recurrence of those complaints indicates that the process could be improved to benefit both parties. Everything you listed can be made better for all. The reasons they're not have to do with a mix of convenience, traditionalism, mimicry and other social factors.

Think of all the good reasons companies had to have workers on site a few years ago, but can somehow still make it work remotely today.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#288

Post by morsch » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

conformist wrote: post #229

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

Somewhat off-topic: I'm a native German speaker and I'm really struggling to understand what "Gestalt" is supposed to mean in contemporary English usage. Like, "Zeitgeist" seems to be used like I would in German (although far more frequently). What am I missing? Is there some subtle difference in meaning via Yiddish or similar?

Gestalt is used in various contexts, like the psychology (especially the psychology of perception). Here's wiktionary:

A collection of physical, biological, psychological or symbolic elements that creates a whole, unified concept or pattern which is other than the sum of its parts, due to the relationships between the parts (of a character, personality, entity, or being) quotations

It's also used that way in German, aside from its regular meaning: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#289

Post by hawk_ » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:31 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #172

jeremymcanally wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finally, someone with a sensible position on this. Interviewing sucks, but the people on the other side of the table don't know you or your skillset. You have to give them some sort of objective information to work with. The position I really don't understand are those who think as a "senior" (whatever that means) engineer you should be able to walk in, answer a few questions, and then be hired just because you have…

> I've worked on a couple of teams that hired solely on the "strength of the résumé," > We realized they were just good interviewers It sounds like they didn't hire solely on the strength of the résumé, because then wouldn't interview performance be irrelevant? In contrast, there are people with strong résumés who don't interview well, regardless of the interviewing method. > The two people I know we hired on that ba…

Good luck hiring and then firing incompentent people (and there are many such "programmers") at scale. At least by making interviews hard you're not putting families at risk which you would by hiring people to fire them with pretty high odds.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#290

Post by ghaff » Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #174

Matticus_Rex wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because nearly every other industry is credentialed, so proving your 3-8 years of university grind is enough to get hired. Nearly every other industry is credentialed and a degree is enough to get hired? I don't think that matches reality at all.

Lawyers need to have passed the bar. Accountants need their CPA. Doctors their MD. Pharmacists their Pharm.D. Finance professionals their CFA. And so on. Software engineers making 150K with only a four year degree and some leetcode have nothing to complain about. Take homes? Whiteboards? Cry me a river. Try to pass the bar or get through residency instead.

And so on is doing a lot of work there. Most professional jobs, whether technical or more on the business side, have very little in the way of credentialing requirements beyond mostly having a strong preference for an undergrad degree. If anything, my impression is that a degree like an MBA is considered less essential for many jobs than it used to be.