Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 470 posts

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#271

Post by pc86 »

cableshaft wrote: post #81
pc86 wrote: post #51

Up front, ghosting is not okay in general. But, a few counterpoints: It seems very unlikely they expected or wanted it to take you 6 hours. Possible, but certainly an outlier (and obviously bad actor) if so. If they expected you to spent 1.5-2 hours on it - a reasonable amount of time IMO - but when got it back you clearly spent an entire day working on it, that's enough to fail because you didn't follow the directio…

> If they expected you to spent 1.5-2 hours on it - a reasonable amount of time IMO - but when got it back you clearly spent an entire day working on it, that's enough to fail because you didn't follow the directions. Yeah, let's fail someone who cares about showing their best self for an interview and takes pride in the craftsmanship of their code because we asked them to spend no time on it and probably get somethi…

Part of evaluating candidates includes, on some level, how quickly they complete work. If I can submit work of quality Q in 2 hours, and you can submit work of quality 1.5Q in 2 hours, you're at a distinct disadvantage if I instead spend an entire day and submit something of 2Q, whether it's couched in "taking pride in craftsmanship" or whatever else. Also, perhaps a bit more reductively, if you're told to spend up to 2 hours on something and you spend 6, that says something about your ability or desire to follow directions.

Your last point isn't true at all, it doesn't need to be in person it just needs to be coordinated. I mention one real-life example of this that worked out very well at the end of the comment you're replying to.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#272

Post by lapser »

sarchertech wrote: post #111
jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

You’re setting up a gigantic straw man. There are camps on HN who dislike all of those things individually—you can’t just take the union of everything someone here dislikes and call it the HN gestalt. >do something unfun to get hired I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. I personally don’t mind putting together a portfolio the way most other creative indu…

I'm in my 30s with a little short of 15 years of experience (all individual contributor), and have interviewed people who claim 20 years of experience or whatever, and they just haven't come close to some people who have been out of uni for a few years. Just cos you have 20 years of experience, it doesn't mean you're fit for the role. Equally, just cos you're just out of university, doesn't mean you're not fit for the role.

The whole point of these tests and whatnot is to weed out the bad from the good. It definitely is unfair on those who are good, but I'm not really sure what the alternative is.

I dislike the take home tests as much as the next person, and only do them if I really want the job. Beyond that, it's a neccessary evil until something better comes along.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#274

Post by test1235 »

willcipriano wrote: post #2

I've had the same experience. Submitted a working code test and crickets. I left it up on my GitHub named "{company name} coding test" and a couple of months later they asked me to take it down beacuse other people were plagiarizing it. Like them, I was concerned with the legal ramifications of providing any sort of contact, so I took no action and didn't respond.

Weird - I had this exact scenario with a contract position working with Sony. I was even rushed to complete the take-home task, after which I was ghosted.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#275

Post by CoastalCoder »

sarchertech wrote: post #111
jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

You’re setting up a gigantic straw man. There are camps on HN who dislike all of those things individually—you can’t just take the union of everything someone here dislikes and call it the HN gestalt. >do something unfun to get hired I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. I personally don’t mind putting together a portfolio the way most other creative indu…

> You’re setting up a gigantic straw man. There are camps on HN who dislike all of those things individually—you can’t just take the union of everything someone here dislikes and call it the HN gestalt.

Is there a name for that fallacy?

I.e., when two different subgroups have incompatible positions, treating each individual in those groups as holding both positions?

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#276

Post by smcl »

If you're giving someone 6h worth of tasks, you really need to:

a) be 100% absolutely certain that you definitely need this to evaluate the candidate (you most likely don't)

b) if you do then you owe it to them to study their submission, run it, test it and provide clear feedback and honestly if they've broadly met the requirements you should interview them. The submission could form part of the interview process - maybe you pair program some changes together, or discuss part of the implementation. Basically if someone delivers six hours of work, you use it.

c) No matter what, you communicate with the candidate throughout this process. There is absolutely no excuse for ghosting candidates. None

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#277

Post by sarchertech »

buildbot wrote: post #258
Double_a_92 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what other professions do you need to take some practical test during an interview? Do you hear of electrical engineers that are asked to draw some circuit on a whiteboard, or to solder something?

Actually, when I was an undergrad looking for internships, I interviewed at Blue Origin for some embedded role and was asked to draw an simple RC circuit. I was super nervous and forgot the symbol for a capacitor, and just told my interviewer that and made one up. I did not get an offer from them (luckily, in retrospect)

Notice that this was for an internship. This kind of thing is commune for new grads, not people with experience.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#278

Post by unbalancedevh »

jasode wrote: post #132
CJefferson wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have rapidly skipped over the exact thing no-one complains about -- a take-home piece of work paid at a reasonable rate. You just claimed people would complain. I've done exactly this, and everyone seemed happy.

>no-one complains about -- a take-home piece of work paid at a reasonable rate. I've seen multiple comments in past HN threads of programmers complaining about any after-hours coding homework (even if paid) because "they have kids and don't have time or energy for that" . Probably the only suggested interview method that gets the fewest complaints from candidates is the "let's have a casual chat and just shoot the br…

> they have kids and don't have time or energy for that

I don't have a lot of sympathy for this argument. If they have time to take half a day to go to an interview, then it doesn't seem like it should be much different to take half a day to work on an interviewing problem.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#280

Post by drawkbox »

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

Contract to hire is the way to go, even if a short time. Most jobs are like that anyways, the first weeks/months are still part of the hiring process. This tests the worker in the actual environment. The contract could even be remote and sectioned off from the larger enterprise, just like any contractors added currently.

The important part of contract-to-hire is it shows how the person will communicate while working, which is not really verified in any way with a take-home or whiteboard setup.

Going straight to full employment is like going from strangers to marriage, contracting is a dating phase.

As someone who has been freelancing/contracting for a long while, it is much preferred to full-time employment and essential ownership anyways.

I personally don't mind take home tests, everything you do you can learn from and this gives you somewhat an idea of the type of company you are working with (not necessarily the work). Though they should be paid, as people that are in demand would be more willing to do them as well as the company more invested in reviewing them. However, in no way is the take home test a good indicator of how this person will ship product.

Post reply on HN