Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 470 posts

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#231

Post by lapcat »

naniwaduni wrote: post #178
lapcat wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apparently the approved HN method is to arrange the resumes on a dartboard, throw darts at it, and commit up front to hiring whoever you hit AFAICT the null hypothesis has yet to be disproven in tech hiring.

There are enough lemons on the job market that this barely even bears examination. Anyone who's ever looked at a pile of incoming resumes can see at a glance that selecting at random from them is going to get a viable employee with vanishingly small probability. Anyone's who's tried to interview from even a selected pool of those can assume that the actual pool of candidates is overall even worse than it looks on pap…

Filter your resumes however you like before you throw the dart.

In any case, the dart throwing method can't be criticized simply because it produces lemons, because no hiring process is perfect. Every company from top to bottom makes bad hires. So you've got to compare the overall results, which will contain both good and bad.

One big advantage of the dart throwing method is that it will randomly select good people who tend to be overlooked by hiring managers because they don't interview well.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#233

Post by trentwritescode »

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

It's not fair to characterized the masses of software developers as being opposed to putting effort into getting jobs. The real challenge is that we all prefer different approaches to the interview and vetting processes while, at the same time, employers are unprepared to accommodate each candidate's style.

Nevertheless, I would absolutely not spend 6 hours on a take home assignment without compensation. Capitalists get carried away sometimes...

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#235

Post by rossdavidh »

I have never been asked to do a home assignment, and I am a contractor who gets a new gig every year or more. Having said that, I have seen it used by good companies. It was a case where the person's background was, as I recall, a music degree, and I think they were wanting to make sure he could program (he could).

It's definitely a strike against a company, but it's something I would put on the scales against how good this job would be. Sometimes it might be worth it.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#236

Post by genezeta »

PaywallBuster wrote: post #77
blackoil wrote: post #64

First, Ghosting is a shit move. No reason HR can't send a standard lawyer approved boiler plate rejection mail. 2nd aspect is unpaid take homes. It's complicated. Companies do pay a lot to fly candidates, put them in hotels and feed them for onsite interview. So financially company can afford to pay something. But it adds a moral hazard as you are paying cash irrespective of any expected quality or commitment. Other…

> Companies do pay a lot to fly candidates, put them in hotels and feed them for onsite interview. I tend to see 1) quick phone call with recruiter 2) please make assignment in Europe at least

This is my experience too most of the time.

In one case, Airbus, they didn't even bother with a phone call. I applied via their website's application process. More than a month later, without having heard anything from them at all, I get an email from someone with an exercise that "should not take you more than 12 hours". They also gave me 3 days from the day the email was sent, to send my code. Eh...

Ah, there was a local company which, as part of the application process itself, would present you with a small test. First problem: it was incorrectly set up and I got some totally unrelated test about something like Excel or whatever. I added a comment to let them know that I thought it was the wrong test. Again, never heard from them for 2 or 3 weeks. Then an email addressed to no one in particular, asking to do an assignment. I replied asking for clarification. Saying I hadn't even spoken with anyone yet and the exercise felt weirdly unrelated to the position I had applied to. Never heard back, fortunately.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#237

Post by LocalPCGuy »

jeremymcanally wrote: post #137
jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

Finally, someone with a sensible position on this. Interviewing sucks, but the people on the other side of the table don't know you or your skillset. You have to give them some sort of objective information to work with. The position I really don't understand are those who think as a "senior" (whatever that means) engineer you should be able to walk in, answer a few questions, and then be hired just because you have…

IMO, the problem really stems in the types of ways interviewers go about trying to assess skill sets. Rather than assess for the very specific skills that will be needed in order to do the job being applied for, it becomes some random take-home exercise they likely copied from somewhere. I take issue with the assumption that devs are against any kind of skill assessment. They are just against skill assessments that do not reflect the skills they will need to be successful in the job at hand.

In my experience interviewing, a properly designed technical interview exercise can fairly accurately peg an interviewee's skill levels in about an hour, as well as their ability to communicate with the team (taking into account nerves will likely reduce their performance in an interview setting). I think having a take-home exercise could be an option that could be offered, particularly if someone is struggling in an in-person(or video) interview session, or even something that is flexible ahead of time to allow the interviewee to put their best foot forward by choosing the evaluation that best suits their strengths.

I do agree with your point that interviewers need to have an ability to spot "good interviewees" - some people are just really good at interviewing. I don't think that automatically means take-home assignment though, I think having gradually more specific questions to suss skill level out (which you mention, i.e. "better questions") is really important.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#238

Post by criddell »

pierot wrote: post #206
sarchertech wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re setting up a gigantic straw man. There are camps on HN who dislike all of those things individually—you can’t just take the union of everything someone here dislikes and call it the HN gestalt. >do something unfun to get hired I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. I personally don’t mind putting together a portfolio the way most other creative indu…

Lots of companies perform rigorous assessment tests for high profile or high paying jobs. IT is not the exception.

If you get to the point where you are going to give an assignment, you have somebody that you believe could do a job that probably pays very well. Go ahead and give the assignment, but also be respectful and pay them for their time.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#239

Post by Tolexx »

morelisp wrote: post #118
sarchertech wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re setting up a gigantic straw man. There are camps on HN who dislike all of those things individually—you can’t just take the union of everything someone here dislikes and call it the HN gestalt. >do something unfun to get hired I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. I personally don’t mind putting together a portfolio the way most other creative indu…

I don't know any other trade that so thoroughly rejects apprenticeships, licensure, and formal certifications.

How can there be apprenticeships when most companies are only looking for senior engineers? They are scared of training junior engineers because they feel that they will leave the company after a few years or even months. This is not always the case.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#240

Post by vhodges »

sarchertech wrote: post #111
jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

You’re setting up a gigantic straw man. There are camps on HN who dislike all of those things individually—you can’t just take the union of everything someone here dislikes and call it the HN gestalt. >do something unfun to get hired I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. I personally don’t mind putting together a portfolio the way most other creative indu…

Here's why we're going to start doing a take home project as part of the hiring process:

Last fall I hired a supposed senior dev with 10+ years of experience and watched them struggle for the next 4 months with the most basic things. At first I though it was our codebase (large, mature and complex), but it became pretty clear they had mis-represented them selves. The fault is ours of course, they should never have been hired in the first place.

As for a portfolio, I would normally agree, but it's too easy to fabricate one. The above developer was put on a PIP and given some basic tasks to prove to me that they could actually do the job they were hired for (or at least the apptitude to learn/figure things out). For 3 of the assignments they submitted repos that indeed implemented what I asked,but they were not their work, they were cloned from Github. I had to let them go.

Post reply on HN